Originally posted by rogue06
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A Thought About Healthcare
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThat policy kind of pissed me off, truth be told. I know there are "exceptions", but getting fined over $1000 was crippling to my family, which was living paycheck to paycheck even with outside help.
Did you look into government contributions options for low-income families, and the hardship options for exemptions from the fine?
Assuming you did both, then your situation is indeed an awful one and I can see why you would be angry. The sad reality is that any bureaucracy is going to "lose people" in the cracks. It's unfortunate, and there should be a mechanism for redress when that happens. Sadly, there usually is not.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-17-2018, 10:48 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIncluding former Newfie Premier Danny Williams, and many, many others.
And here's an article with actual numbers in it, since carpe doesn't like anecdotal accounts.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000...tute-1.3486635
But one professor warns the data is based only on estimates, making it highly questionable.
So did this:
The report says "one explanation" for patients leaving the country may be the long wait times in Canada. It also notes that some patients may be sent out of country for treatment, at the expense of the public health care system, because the procedure or equipment they need are not available in their jurisdiction.
So the data is estimates, and it muddles those who elect to go out of the country, and those who are intentionally sent out of the country by the Canadian Healthcare system.
Look, I have no doubt that there are long wait times, and those three provinces seem especially susceptible (I have to wonder if Mossrose lives in one of them). I noticed Quebec is not on the list, which may partially explain why my cousin's experience and Mossrose's experience are so different.
None of this changes the data that shows Canadian and UK satisfaction with their healthcare is WAY above U.S. satisfaction. And that pattern holds true for almost all countries with universal healthcare systems. You cannot just hand-wave that data away. So how do you explain it?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostAnd they'd only have to wait 10 hours in an emergency room and 18-24 months for hip surgery or 6-8 months for an MRI or CT scan or 6 months to see a specialist.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-17-2018, 10:54 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThose are basically fake numbers as the professor quoted in the link says.
In interviews I have seen with Canadian medical professionals, they pretty much laughed at and mocked the idea that any significant number of Canadians go to the US for care. If anything it is by far the other way around: A lot of people living in the US get on a plane back to their home countries for free care if it turns out they need something significant done.
A few statistics from the study:
- Less than 1% of Canadians go abroad for healthcare (about 1.5 million Americans go abroad for healthcare annually)
- Most hospitals/clinics at/near the Canadian border report less than 1 Canadian per month seeking services.
- Less than 0.5% of Canadian doctors come to the U.S. to work (I know U.S. doctors go north, but cannot find numbers)
The study also tackles the wait times issue. They note it is largely because Canadians have shown fiscal restraint (something they could teach our politicians) and intentionally keep costs down by limiting supply. They also note that the wait times cited by most studies combine elective and urgent times in one number. Elective treatments have enormously long wait times. Non-elective treatments far less so (no numbers provided). If you recall, I wondered that about the study Mossrose provided. I could not find where they separated out those numbers. Apparently the reason I couldn't find it is because they didn't.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
"Free" healthcare? You know the saying: you get what you pay for.
So, I cannot say that the numbers were made up or that the presentation is biased. I also cannot say it is not biased. I can say I am skeptical, and I am not inclined to go chasing down every claim made when the author cannot be bothered to cite sources or link to the related studies from which the numbers were pulled.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThat is the case at present in parts of rural health care in the USA among the low income, and no emergency room within 50 to 100 miles.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell, the "foxnews" source, coupled with it being clearly an opinion piece, set my "possible bias" radar pinging. So I read through the article, and wanted to review the sources cited, and I didn't find a single source or study specifically cited or linked. Indeed, the only link I found was the the author's own book, at the bottom of the article, and it takes you to a page where you can buy the book.
So, I cannot say that the numbers were made up or that the presentation is biased. I also cannot say it is not biased. I can say I am skeptical, and I am not inclined to go chasing down every claim made when the author cannot be bothered to cite sources or link to the related studies from which the numbers were pulled.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostThere must be another solution that would work better than any that are currently in place.
All socialization does is throw taxpayer dollars down a bottomless hole."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo, two things. First, there ACA was structured to provide significant support for those who could not afford health insurance. That was one of the key reasons for the law in the first place. If a person applied, and could not afford it, their income is used to determine what they will actually pay and the government paid the rest. Second, there is a long list of hardship exemptions that would apply if someone did not have the insurance, and poverty level is one of the items on the list. So this appears to be a claim without a lot of merit.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostPure speculation. I have no idea where you could possibly go to find any data that would support this position, other than to point to the military budgets of various countries - which would be correlation and not causation. Personally, I think we put far too much money into our own military than we should - especially when it is the only part of our government (outside of black ops) that has successfully dodged a thorough audit now for over half a century.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYeah - this is a common complaint/tactic of the right...
00000000000000ars8a.gif
If handwaving off things you don't like was an
Olympic sport, carpe would easily take the gold
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSecond, there is a long list of hardship exemptions that would apply if someone did not have the insurance, and poverty level is one of the items on the list. So this appears to be a claim without a lot of merit."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIf there is "no merit" here, then why was I unable to get an exemption despite at times not even having money for food?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI'm guessing this was because the Republican politicians in your state choose to opt-out of the medicaid expansion, which meant you didn't qualify for the subsidies?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI never inferred that there aren't problems with the American health care system. However, the solution is not to change to socialized medical care. There must be another solution that would work better than any that are currently in place. All socialization does is throw taxpayer dollars down a bottomless hole.
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