Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

A Thought About Healthcare

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And if you are a hardship case the Pharmaceutical companies are known for providing medication at no charge. Unfortunately I only discovered this after my mother went into in-home hospice and was no longer getting a drug that was costing over $600/week (without insurance it was somewhere between $1200-1600).
    I was recently put on Brilinta after I had a heart stent put in.

    The retail cost for a 90 day supply is $57,506.71.
    My insurance price is: $430.91

    But I found a coupon from the manufacturer for $18.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      An example is simply an example. "Aunt Betty tripped on the sidewalk in front of our house" is not an argument for digging up the sidewalk and replacing it. What exactly did Aunt Betty trip on? How stable is her walking? How many other people have tripped on that sidewalk at that place? At best, Aunt Betty's experience is a trigger for examining the issue. Does something need to be done?

      People like Mossrose put forward their personal experience as if it is the defining factor and there is little/nothing anyone can say to suggest perhaps their experience is not the norm. The data seems to support the fact that wait times are long. Analysis suggests that wait time is actually an intentional trade-off for cost containment. And the overall breadth of studies suggests that people are generally content with the service, and contentment is higher in these countries than countries without such a program.

      When the weight of that broader evidence is being ignored because "I had a bad experience," the person needs to be reminded that an example is not an argument.

      If you prefer - an example is an incredibly weak argument in the face of all of the data that says otherwise.
      When someone lives a situation, they are eye witnesses to the events. So of course their "example" is an argument. To say otherwise is idiotic.

      You don't have to believe them, that is up to you, but to just dismiss their experience as irrelevant is just another one of your standard dodges. You are getting pretty predictable.

      And "data" is just a collection of "examples"

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        When someone lives a situation, they are eye witnesses to the events. So of course their "example" is an argument. To say otherwise is idiotic.

        You don't have to believe them, that is up to you, but to just dismiss their experience as irrelevant is just another one of your standard dodges. You are getting pretty predictable.

        And "data" is just a collection of "examples"
        "Your honour, just because the 10 witnesses saw my client murder the alleged victim doesn't mean anything! Their testimonies are just examples and there is no data to prove anything!"


        That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Dismiss anything that anybody experiences, or knows because they actually live with the system, as invalid because it doesn't fit your liberal mindset. All carpe can see is "free healthcare! Woo-hoo!".

        That's why I told him I hope he gets what he wants. And I will grieve for the rest of you.
        Last edited by mossrose; 06-18-2018, 11:00 AM.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          When someone lives a situation, they are eye witnesses to the events. So of course their "example" is an argument. To say otherwise is idiotic.

          You don't have to believe them, that is up to you, but to just dismiss their experience as irrelevant is just another one of your standard dodges. You are getting pretty predictable.

          And "data" is just a collection of "examples"
          You do love to toss out words like "idiotic" and "dodge." Do you really think it strengthens your argument?

          The point of the phrase "an example is not an argument" is to underscore that an example, by itself, does not make a case. It's just a single data point. No one goes out to study cardio-health by interviewing one cardiac patient and asking them about their experience. No one says "X is going to win the election" by going out and asking one person what they think.

          And yes, data is a bunch of examples. It is that "bunch" that paints the picture.

          And no one dismissed Mossrose experience as "irrelevant." It is clearly relevant to her; I would be outraged if I had the same experience; and I hope I would have the common sense to look past my own experience to see if this was an outlier or part of a larger trend, and to also look for causality.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            You do love to toss out words like "idiotic" and "dodge." Do you really think it strengthens your argument?

            The point of the phrase "an example is not an argument" is to underscore that an example, by itself, does not make a case. It's just a single data point. No one goes out to study cardio-health by interviewing one cardiac patient and asking them about their experience. No one says "X is going to win the election" by going out and asking one person what they think.

            And yes, data is a bunch of examples. It is that "bunch" that paints the picture.

            And no one dismissed Mossrose experience as "irrelevant." It is clearly relevant to her; I would be outraged if I had the same experience; and I hope I would have the common sense to look past my own experience to see if this was an outlier or part of a larger trend, and to also look for causality.
            You are not seeing that our experience was a GOOD experience. When the cardiologist tells you that if you go home you will die waiting for surgery, but if you stay in the hospital now (and still wait 10 days for surgery) that your chances are much better, then you know things are generally dire.

            You just can't see it.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              You are not seeing that our experience was a GOOD experience. When the cardiologist tells you that if you go home you will die waiting for surgery, but if you stay in the hospital now (and still wait 10 days for surgery) that your chances are much better, then you know things are generally dire.

              You just can't see it.
              I am so confused! Who do I believe? Someone who actually lives in Canada who has dealt with their healthcare system over and over, or some American guy who has never ever dealt with the Canadian healthcare system or any socialized healthcare system at all but claims he knows more than someone who lives there?


              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                You are not seeing that our experience was a GOOD experience. When the cardiologist tells you that if you go home you will die waiting for surgery, but if you stay in the hospital now (and still wait 10 days for surgery) that your chances are much better, then you know things are generally dire.

                You just can't see it.
                What you describe is actually not in my definition of "good experience." Going home and dying waiting for surgery or waiting 10 days for an emergency surgery are not "good" by any medical assessment I can imagine.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I am so confused! Who do I believe? Someone who actually lives in Canada who has dealt with their healthcare system over and over, or some American guy who has never ever dealt with the Canadian healthcare system or any socialized healthcare system at all but claims he knows more than someone who lives there?

                  I would say neither. Go to the data. The one person can have had a bad experience that is coloring her entire perception. The one guy in America could have misread the studies. So go find the studies for yourself, and wander a bit outside your "bubble" to find a broader array. The studies out there paint a fairly clear picture:

                  1) Long wait times are common
                  2) These have been intentionally built in as a cost-control measure
                  3) The Canadian generally triages cases, with shorter wait times for urgent procedures and longer ones for elective procecures
                  4) Canadians are, on average, happier with their healthcare than Americans
                  5) People in countries with universal healthcare are, on average in each country, happier with their healthcare than Americans
                  6) Medical costs in countries with universal healthcare systems are lower than in the U.S.

                  That's what the data I have found says. I lean towards the data, not the individual case. I recommend you do your own digging.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I would say neither. Go to the data. The one person can have had a bad experience that is coloring her entire perception. The one guy in America could have misread the studies. So go find the studies for yourself, and wander a bit outside your "bubble" to find a broader array. The studies out there paint a fairly clear picture:

                    1) Long wait times are common
                    2) These have been intentionally built in as a cost-control measure
                    3) The Canadian generally triages cases, with shorter wait times for urgent procedures and longer ones for elective procecures
                    4) Canadians are, on average, happier with their healthcare than Americans
                    5) People in countries with universal healthcare are, on average in each country, happier with their healthcare than Americans
                    6) Medical costs in countries with universal healthcare systems are lower than in the U.S.

                    That's what the data I have found says. I lean towards the data, not the individual case. I recommend you do your own digging.
                    What makes you think that data is not being skewed? The one that was quoted earlier was paid for by an organization that supports socialized medicine. Why do you accept those statistics?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      What you describe is actually not in my definition of "good experience." Going home and dying waiting for surgery or waiting 10 days for an emergency surgery are not "good" by any medical assessment I can imagine.

                      Exactly! Neither are acceptable! But that's socialized medicine! And it is the NORM in Canada!
                      Last edited by mossrose; 06-18-2018, 01:51 PM.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        What makes you think that data is not being skewed? The one that was quoted earlier was paid for by an organization that supports socialized medicine. Why do you accept those statistics?
                        I looked across all of the statistics I could find, Sparko. And I do not engage in the genetic fallacy. That they arose from such organizations raised my "bias" alarm, but the reviews of the studies appeared to be solid. Likewise, the stories of the wait times were also substantiated and based on solid evidence, though they appear to arise from right-wing sources.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          Exactly! Neither are acceptable! But that's socialized medicine! And it is the NORM in Canada!
                          You're going to hurt yourself.

                          That you experienced it is clear. That my cousin did not is also clear. So why would I discard either of your claims? You claim suggest "problem" and his claim suggests "going great." Neither is an argument - both are single data points.

                          Your last statement is ambiguous at best. The "norm" is long wait times. That much is documented. What is not documented (that I have found) is how procedures are triaged and how the wait times differ by procedure type/urgency. Some anecdotal evidence suggests that the right is munging the numbers together to push a point, but I cannot find the numbers separated anywhere, so I cannot judge the validity of that claim.

                          Yet, despite your claims, overall satisfaction levels appear to be fairly high. So...

                          ETA: I will add this observation: people's perceptions are strongly color by their political, religious and experiential bias. My brother-in-law shares your view of "socialized medicine" and hates "Obamacare." He has nothing but nasty stories to tell about healthcare since the start of Obamacare. I listen to his stories, and find myself shaking my head. Although I have had to wait now and again, I have never had a seriously negative experience with healthcare, before or after Obamacare, and I have had a LOT of involvement with medicine both for myself and my son. My primary issue with the U.S. system is the unbelievable cost, the lack of access to healthcare by the poor, and the potential for people to be wiped out financially by a health issue.
                          Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-18-2018, 02:23 PM.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • You'll believe what you want, so I give up.

                            As I said, I hope you get what you want, and I hope you see first hand how awful it is.

                            Carry on, now. I refuse to beat my head against the wall that is your arrogance any longer.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              You'll believe what you want, so I give up.

                              As I said, I hope you get what you want, and I hope you see first hand how awful it is.

                              Carry on, now. I refuse to beat my head against the wall that is your arrogance any longer.
                              Arrogance...?
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                                It a decent system but I can still see the "good ole' boy" network could be a factor in letting bad Dr.'s keep practicing...but that's true of pretty much any self-policing system.
                                That's why it's always important to have investigative agencies independent of the entity they are investigation, and not rely on 'self-regulation'. So you need an independent authority to investigate complaints about police, and independent authority to investigate complaints about doctors etc. (My country consistently ranks as the least-corrupt in the world.)

                                And that's why I keep pointing out the US needs an independent authority to investigate complaints about police, because self-regulation of police departments is clearly a problem in the US.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                142 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                386 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                112 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                364 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X