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  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    It's almost like one source places an emphasis on accuracy and truth and so is pretty consistently right and only makes the occasional mistake, and that the other source aims to be propaganda so consistently misleads and lies and only occasionally tells the truth to its viewers...

    That's why I have so little time for the "but both sides must be half right" arguments. No, if one side is trying to be accurate, and the other side is not interested in truth, then it will not be anywhere close to both sides being equally right.
    Hmm... I think it's a bit of a stretch to label the right as "not interested in truth" and the left as "mostly trying to be accurate." I'm not even sure I could make a clear claim as to which side spins more, and which side builds on facts.

    I do have to admit, however, that I went to a #KeepFamiliesTogether rally last night with my wife. I am hesitant to go to such things because it is unclear to me how many people actually want to do something, and how many people are just salving their conscience by going and waving a sign and then walking away self-satisfied. I was very impressed by a 15-year old boy who got up and called out that exact dynamic. He explicitly asked, "What are you doing here? Do you think your signs and your being here are going to change anything? They're not! You have to take the next step. The real question is, what are you going to do when you walk away from here? If you do nothing, then you're wasting your time being here."

    Anyway, I digress. I brought up the session because I have taken to listening to people who are clearly partisan on an issue with my "bias radar" on full alert. So, as the speakers made various claims, I searched on my phone for any kind of corroboration or refutation of the points being made. I found folks being about 95% accurate, and what was inaccurate was largely hyperbole, not flat out falsehood. I had no idea of the degree to which psychotropic drugs are being used on children in detention (not to mention older people in senior living/care situations). I had no idea we currently have almost 12,000 immigrant children in detention. Some come from over the border. Some come from within the country.

    One young man's story I read was heartbreaking. A good kid, freshman in high school, and the cops pulled the driver of a car he was in over for speeding. They asked him for papers because he was of Hispanic descent. He had no such papers (I don't know too many High School freshmen who do, except their school ID). That absence was enough for him to be arrested and turned over to ICE. That was when he learned that his mother had brought him over illegally as a baby, and he was not a citizen. He has been held in detention center after detention center, increasingly angry and frustrated with his situation. Like most other kids his age, that eventually led to him acting out. Now he is in a juvenile detention center with some of the hardest juvenile cases out there, and no indication of when/if he will ever get out. A young man widely acclaimed as a "good kid" is being systematically turned into a hardened young man.

    These are the kinds of things that should not be happening.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Hmm... I think it's a bit of a stretch to label the right as "not interested in truth" and the left as "mostly trying to be accurate." I'm not even sure I could make a clear claim as to which side spins more, and which side builds on facts.
      Um... I feel like if you can say that with a straight face you probably haven't been paying attention enough.

      Anyway, I digress. I brought up the session because I have taken to listening to people who are clearly partisan on an issue with my "bias radar" on full alert. So, as the speakers made various claims, I searched on my phone for any kind of corroboration or refutation of the points being made. I found folks being about 95% accurate, and what was inaccurate was largely hyperbole, not flat out falsehood.
      Okay. So a liberal rally by your estimation was 95%+ accurate.

      Try attending a conservative rally and doing the same fact-checking. I suspect they will come in under 20% accurate. In the US the two sides aren't remotely close to the same in truthfulness.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Found Starlight's brain scan...

        colla3.jpg

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I had no idea we currently have almost 12,000 immigrant children in detention. Some come from over the border. Some come from within the country.
          Demi knew that week ago. Read less Fake News carped, be less ignorant.

          These are the kinds of things that should not be happening.
          Thank Obama!
          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Um... I feel like if you can say that with a straight face you probably haven't been paying attention enough.
            Oh I've been paying attention...and I can say that...

            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Okay. So a liberal rally by your estimation was 95%+ accurate.
            Yes.

            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Try attending a conservative rally and doing the same fact-checking. I suspect they will come in under 20% accurate. In the US the two sides aren't remotely close to the same in truthfulness.
            Actually, that's a pretty good experiment. I'll have to keep my eyes open for them. I should avoid a Trump Rally, though. Those are 95% inaccurate just based on what Trump says...
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Oh I've been paying attention...and I can say that...
              I was thinking about why you might think this, and was wondering if your sample was mainly the talking heads on TV or newspaper columnists.

              I don't think the TV talking heads or columnists are good representatives of either party. I would say they represent what the elites in their imagination wish the two parties were like, or what the Dem vs Rep discussions look like in their cocktail parties. Its like if you take a bunch of friends who are at the same school and select out a couple of them to have a debate over "smaller government vs bigger government" or somesuch. You wouldn't expect much difference between the two friends in their general demeanor, level of education, truthfulness, worldview etc. But those two friends would not be a representative sample of the kinds of people in the country who held the views they are defending. So when you say you've not noticed much difference in levels of truthfulness and spin, I have to wonder if you've been watching these kinds of TV discussions between friends. Obviously such discussions make it look like there's not a whole lot of difference between the parties, and that everyone is pretty reasonable and thoughtful. But it's the non-representative nature of such discussions that makes them useless as a real measure of the parties. People like George Will are not, nor have ever been, remotely close to any sort of accurate representation of Republican thought and views in general, and their purpose has been to try to pretend Republicans in general are reasonable. I would say that in such discussions the Republican talking heads do a good job of making the Republican party (both the base and the elected representatives) look way better than it is, and the Democratic talking heads make the Dems look way worse than they are.

              But the moment you start looking at (a) actual policies and laws voted for, (b) actual statements by politicians, (c) actual polling data about voters and what they think and want... the differences between the two parties become much starker.

              Actually, that's a pretty good experiment. I'll have to keep my eyes open for them. I should avoid a Trump Rally, though. Those are 95% inaccurate just based on what Trump says...
              Well you could find a pro-Trump rally that Trump himself isn't actually at. However, I think Trump's own 95% falsehoods are just a symbol of the fact that more generally the Republican party, Republican voters, Fox News etc aren't really interested in truth and accuracy and haven't been for a long time. You would never get a leader of the Dem party who spouted 95% falsehoods, it just wouldn't happen, because people on the left are actually interested in truth and accuracy and reality, as Karl Rove infamously put it they are "the reality-based community".

              But yes, I would definitely encourage you to actually personally experiment with this and find a conservative rally. Of course, some possible bias to be aware of is that your area might be better educated on average than the average conservative areas of the US, so the conservatives in your area might not be nationally representative.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Found Starlight's brain scan...

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]28582[/ATTACH]
                I see I was overly generous with my 20% accurate estimation.

                Some observations:
                - Actually I have an excellent sense of humor and love comedy
                - I don't feel guilt for anything
                - I don't feel like a victim for anything
                - I believe in objective morality not moral relativism
                - I'm quite a forceful person and like decisive action so the lacking a spinal cord seems rather inappropriate
                - I'm a very independent thinker
                - My knowledge of and interest in Karl Marx and Che Guevara is minimal
                - My opinions on political correctness are mixed at best

                And the picture's definitely missing the 'base political policies on empirical data lobe'.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment

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