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Thread: The Strange Nature Of Dreams...

  1. #61
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Whether its possible to sin in dream remains very theoretical with the consensus of theologians leaning strongly towards no.

    Basically you're not of sound mind while you're dreaming, most dreams are entirely involuntary. For lucid dreaming I'll says its a maybe. That is if you became awake enough to have concious thought, but still remaining in a dream... and choose to dream about something sinful out of a desire. Then I think that could possible be a sinful dream. But, it would really depend on whether you were simply dreaming about 'choosing something evil' which could just be natural fear you have, or dreaming about something sinful because your rational nature is asleep (and its only the rational nature that can perform moral actions.)

    But its very theoretical. We do enough bad stuff when we're awake to worry about what we do while we're asleep.

  2. #62
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Whether its possible to sin in dream remains very theoretical with the consensus of theologians leaning strongly towards no.

    Basically you're not of sound mind while you're dreaming, most dreams are entirely involuntary. For lucid dreaming I'll says its a maybe. That is if you became awake enough to have concious thought, but still remaining in a dream... and choose to dream about something sinful out of a desire. Then I think that could possible be a sinful dream. But, it would really depend on whether you were simply dreaming about 'choosing something evil' which could just be natural fear you have, or dreaming about something sinful because your rational nature is asleep (and its only the rational nature that can perform moral actions.)

    But its very theoretical. We do enough bad stuff when we're awake to worry about what we do while we're asleep.
    So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.

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  4. #63
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.
    I don't think Leonhard's example of lucid dreaming and deliberately choosing to dream about something sinful is the same thing as "thinking about a sin".

    In any case, I do happen to think it's possible to sin "in your head" so to speak, but the important thing is not what you think about, but how you think about it. For example, feeling sexual attraction towards someone other than your fiancé(e)/spouse is not necessarily a sin. But I'm pretty sure choosing to indulge in sexual fantasies in your mind about someone other than your spouse is a sin. And Leonhard's example about lucid dreaming does seem like it could qualify under the "choosing to indulge in something" umbrella.

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  6. #64
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I don't think Leonhard's example of lucid dreaming and deliberately choosing to dream about something sinful is the same thing as "thinking about a sin".

    In any case, I do happen to think it's possible to sin "in your head" so to speak, but the important thing is not what you think about, but how you think about it. For example, feeling sexual attraction towards someone other than your fiancé(e)/spouse is not necessarily a sin. But I'm pretty sure choosing to indulge in sexual fantasies in your mind about someone other than your spouse is a sin. And Leonhard's example about lucid dreaming does seem like it could qualify under the "choosing to indulge in something" umbrella.
    The thing is, I have had dreams where I knew what I was about to do was a sin, I was aware of that. And did it anyway... I suspect that was an actual sin.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  7. #65
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    The thing is, I have had dreams where I knew what I was about to do was a sin, I was aware of that. And did it anyway... I suspect that was an actual sin.
    I don't know about that.

    I think there's another way of looking at it. I don't think sinful thoughts and dreams (non-lucid ones, i.e where you're not aware you're dreaming at the moment) in and of themselves constitute actual sin. I do think they're indicative of our sinful nature however. And when it comes to "not being allowed into heaven/the new earth" I believe having a sinful nature is just as damning as committing individual sins. Which is why when Christ returns our old sinful nature will be exchanged for a new sin-free one in which we won't have these thoughts and dreams of sin.

  8. #66
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.
    Not all thoughts are equal. The notion of accidentally sinning is an oxymoron. If a sin is to be a sin, it has to be an action of your free will. Involuntary thoughts cannot be sinful. Temptations can't be sinful either. But there's a difference between being tempted, and wilfully plotting revenge in your mind.

  9. #67
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Not all thoughts are equal. The notion of accidentally sinning is an oxymoron. If a sin is to be a sin, it has to be an action of your free will. Involuntary thoughts cannot be sinful. Temptations can't be sinful either. But there's a difference between being tempted, and wilfully plotting revenge in your mind.
    So if you plot revenge in your mind, but then decide not to do it, do you get credit for that and cancel out the sin of plotting?

  10. #68
    tWebber T-Shirt Ninja's Avatar
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    From my cursory knowledge of neuroscience, systems of thoughts commonly referred to as modules are competing for the conscious mind's attention. Plotting revenge and then deciding not to do it would be two modules fighting each other and one of them winning. It seems to me far more likely that God would be more concerned with which modules won out rather than which ones exist.
    "Concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it. Remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being; remind yourself what nature demands of people. Then do it, without hesitation, and speak the truth as you see it. But with kindness. With humility. Without hypocrisy."
    -Marcus Aurelius

    "Sit by the firelight's glow / Tell us an old tale we know / Tell of adventures strange and rare / Never to change / Ever to share / Stories we tell will cast their spell / Now and for always"

  11. #69
    tWebber mattbballman31's Avatar
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    In an Inception-sense, perhaps there’s levels of subconsciousness, according to which each level is recognized as ‘conscious’ in relation to the level under it. For any two subconscious levels L1 and L2, according to which L1 is subconscious relative to L2, L1 can present an argument to L2 in such a way that L2 didn’t see it coming (since the activity of ‘seeing’ is a function of the ‘conscious’ level of experience at that particular level). This seems consistent with saying that there is a subject S who is owner of any, and every, potential subconscious level L that happened to emerge in the course of a dream, depending on the subconscious complexity that the dream exhibits.
    Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
    George Horne

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So thinking about a sin is an actual sin? If that is the case then resisting temptation is pointless since you have already committed the sin in your mind by thinking about it.
    Well, isn't that true? Didn't Jesus, according to the bible, say just that, that even if you lust in your heart you have already sinned. I mean, personally I think that's dumb, but isn't that what the bible says?

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