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Phantom limbs and the Soul

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  • Phantom limbs and the Soul

    Britannica describes it thus:

    Phantom limb syndrome, the ability to feel sensations and even pain in a limb or limbs that no longer exist. Phantom limb syndrome is characterized by both nonpainful and painful sensations. Nonpainful sensations can be divided into the perception of movement and the perception of external sensations (exteroception), including touch, temperature, pressure, vibration, and itch. Pain sensations range from burning and shooting pains to feelings of tingling “pins and needles.” While phantom limb syndrome occurs only in amputees, phantom sensations may be perceived in people who have survived strokes but lost function of certain body parts or who have spinal cord injury or peripheral nerve injury.

    Source
    They go on to note an explanation for it in materialist terms. However, I do not think that any materialist explanation for it makes sense. It would mean that you are feeling (or sensing, if you prefer) something in an area where you do not exist. The idea of it being a hallucination also doesn't make sense because you can't hallucinate a sensation (with respect to yourself). To show this, assume that you can hallucinate a sensation (w.r.t yourself).

    So
    (1) I hallucinate a sensation (w.r.t yourself).

    hallucinate means to sense (i.e. see, feel, hear etc.) something that does not exist

    So
    (2) I sense a sensation that does not exist (w.r.t yourself).
    follows from (1).

    To sense something is to have a sensation of something.

    Thus,
    (3) I have a sensation of a sensation that does not exist (w.r.t yourself).

    follows from (2)

    But (3) is gibberish. So, hallucinating a sensation (w.r.t yourself) has no meaning. So you can't do it. QED

    Now

    P1: It is possible that you may have a sensation in a region where your body does not exist.
    P2: If you perceive a sensation in a region, you have a real sensation in that region.
    P3: If you have a real sensation in that region, then you must exist in that region.
    C: You exist in a region where your body does not exist. Thus, the soul exists.

    P1 is true since phantom limbs exist.
    P2 is true since you can't hallucinate a sensation (w.r.t yourself).
    P3 is true because if the sensation is real, there must be something in that region experiencing it. It must also be a part of you since you are experiencing a real sensation.

    The conclusion follows from the 3 premises.

    Thoughts?
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

  • #2
    Everything you feel is actually in your brain. the nerves are sensors that report to the brain where you feel them. The nerves continue to send signals to the brain even though part of them has been cut off. That is why you feel a limb that is not there.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Everything you feel is actually in your brain. the nerves are sensors that report to the brain where you feel them. The nerves continue to send signals to the brain even though part of them has been cut off. That is why you feel a limb that is not there.
      If you hit your arm, you feel pain in your arm. There is some sensation in the arm, not the brain. So I don't think you can say that "what you feel" is in your brain.
      -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
      Sir James Jeans

      -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
      Sir Isaac Newton

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
        If you hit your arm, you feel pain in your arm. There is some sensation in the arm, not the brain. So I don't think you can say that "what you feel" is in your brain.
        The nerves that went down into the missing limb still exist. If something triggers that nerve it can "trick" the brain.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          The nerves that went down into the missing limb still exist. If something triggers that nerve it can "trick" the brain.
          So he is hallucinating a sensation then?
          -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
          Sir James Jeans

          -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
          Sir Isaac Newton

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
            Britannica describes it thus:



            They go on to note an explanation for it in materialist terms. However, I do not think that any materialist explanation for it makes sense. It would mean that you are feeling (or sensing, if you prefer) something in an area where you do not exist. The idea of it being a hallucination also doesn't make sense because you can't hallucinate a sensation (with respect to yourself). To show this, assume that you can hallucinate a sensation (w.r.t yourself).

            So
            (1) I hallucinate a sensation (w.r.t yourself).

            hallucinate means to sense (i.e. see, feel, hear etc.) something that does not exist

            So
            (2) I sense a sensation that does not exist (w.r.t yourself).
            follows from (1).

            To sense something is to have a sensation of something.

            Thus,
            (3) I have a sensation of a sensation that does not exist (w.r.t yourself).

            follows from (2)

            But (3) is gibberish. So, hallucinating a sensation (w.r.t yourself) has no meaning. So you can't do it. QED

            Now

            P1: It is possible that you may have a sensation in a region where your body does not exist.
            P2: If you perceive a sensation in a region, you have a real sensation in that region.
            P3: If you have a real sensation in that region, then you must exist in that region.
            C: You exist in a region where your body does not exist. Thus, the soul exists.

            P1 is true since phantom limbs exist.
            P2 is true since you can't hallucinate a sensation (w.r.t yourself).
            P3 is true because if the sensation is real, there must be something in that region experiencing it. It must also be a part of you since you are experiencing a real sensation.

            The conclusion follows from the 3 premises.

            Thoughts?
            I do not accept P2 nor P3. The brain has in its neurological network the function and existence of all your limbs, and the loose of one limb does not end function and existence of the limb in the neurological network of the brain.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-24-2018, 10:42 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
              So he is hallucinating a sensation then?
              While tactile hallucination has been used in describing the phenomena it is now known that there is considerable changes in the brain after the loss of a limb, notably in the primary somatosensory cortex (particularly in the postcentral gyrus in the lateral pariental lobe[1] -- which is the main receptive region for our sense of touch)[2] thanks to neural plasticity (where neurons in the brain modify their connections).












              1. 00000000000000ars1x.gif
              XXXXXPostcentral gyrus

              2 See Massive cortical reorganization after sensory deafferentation in adult macaques along with Phantom-limb pain as a perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization following arm amputation (the full paper of the latter can be downloaded through here) for some of the initial research.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                If you hit your arm, you feel pain in your arm. There is some sensation in the arm, not the brain. So I don't think you can say that "what you feel" is in your brain.
                When you hit your arm, nerves in your arm send a signal to your brain, and your brain "feels" it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  When you hit your arm, nerves in your arm send a signal to your brain, and your brain "feels" it.
                  Sorta like if I bump my elbow in a certain way my nose itches and causes me to sneeze.
                  When I Survey....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    When you hit your arm, nerves in your arm send a signal to your brain, and your brain "feels" it.
                    I believe a simple explanation is the brain still has memories of the missing limb, which persist even though the limb is gone.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post
                      Sorta like if I bump my elbow in a certain way my nose itches and causes me to sneeze.
                      sometimes when I stratch between my little toe and the next one, I feel it on my forearm.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        When you hit your arm, nerves in your arm send a signal to your brain, and your brain "feels" it.
                        That doesn't make sense. If your brain "feels" it, then you would have feeling in your brain. But the feeling is in your arm. It's possible that the brain generates it, but the actual feeling is in your arm.
                        -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                        Sir James Jeans

                        -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                        Sir Isaac Newton

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                          That doesn't make sense. If your brain "feels" it, then you would have feeling in your brain. But the feeling is in your arm. It's possible that the brain generates it, but the actual feeling is in your arm.
                          You're letting personal incredulity color your responses.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            While tactile hallucination has been used in describing the phenomena it is now known that there is considerable changes in the brain after the loss of a limb, notably in the primary somatosensory cortex (particularly in the postcentral gyrus in the lateral pariental lobe[1] -- which is the main receptive region for our sense of touch)[2] thanks to neural plasticity (where neurons in the brain modify their connections).












                            1. [ATTACH=CONFIG]28530[/ATTACH]
                            XXXXXPostcentral gyrus

                            2 See Massive cortical reorganization after sensory deafferentation in adult macaques along with Phantom-limb pain as a perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization following arm amputation (the full paper of the latter can be downloaded through here) for some of the initial research.
                            Ok. The science is interesting. However, how can I feel something in a region that I do not exist in?
                            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                            Sir James Jeans

                            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                            Sir Isaac Newton

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              You're letting personal incredulity color your responses.
                              How?

                              P1:If your brain feels it, then you will have feeling in your brain
                              P2:You do not have feeling in your brain (The feeling is in your arm)
                              C: Thus, your brain does not feel it.
                              -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                              Sir James Jeans

                              -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                              Sir Isaac Newton

                              Comment

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