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Cogito ergo sum

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Phantom limbs and the Soul

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    That doesn't make sense. If your brain "feels" it, then you would have feeling in your brain. But the feeling is in your arm. It's possible that the brain generates it, but the actual feeling is in your arm.
    . . . not if it is a memory of the limb in the brain.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
      That doesn't make sense. If your brain "feels" it, then you would have feeling in your brain. But the feeling is in your arm. It's possible that the brain generates it, but the actual feeling is in your arm.
      Your brain has a map of your entire body in it. The nerves from your body all run to various areas in your brain. So when a nerve sends a signal, your brain registers it as a feeling in that part of your body.

      Brain surgeons have done test to determine which parts of the brain correspond with which parts of the body. They can electrically stimulate parts of a person's brain and they will feel it in that part of their body. Like if they stimulate the part that corresponds with their left finger, then they feel it in their left finger, even though nothing his touching their left finger. The same with smell, they can stimulate a part of the brain and you will smell certain smells. Or see various things. There are also parts of your brain that control the muscles in each part of your body. When you think of moving your arm, that part of the brain sends signals via the nerves down to the muscles that control your arm.

      Your brain is basically "YOU" and your body just reports everything to the brain.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
        Ok. The science is interesting. However, how can I feel something in a region that I do not exist in?
        Because that part still exists in your brain. See the diagram above. There is a part of your brain that corresponds with the nerves in your left hand. When the nerves in your left hand send signals to your brain, it goes to that area and you feel your hand. Your brain sends signals back and you can move your hand.

        When your hand gets cut off, the part of the brain that represents your left hand is still there. The nerves that ran down into your hand are still there. They are damaged and start firing signals to your brain, where you still will feel your hand.

        Your brain can still try to move your hand too, but it is not there to move. But they have started developing artificial limbs that read the signals your brain sends into those nerves and using them to move the artificial limb. And they are starting to figure out how to give you a sense of touch by having sensors in the limb stimulate the nerves that correspond with that part of the body that is missing. So the "phantom limb" feeling will actually be sensing the artificial limb and then move it.

        That's pretty neat, huh?

        Here is an article about a hand they are trying to develop:

        https://newatlas.com/mind-controlled...fingers/41886/

        And here is an article about an arm they are developing that gives the person a sense of their artificial arm, feeling where it is and such:

        https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/14/...-bionic-limbs/

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
          They go on to note an explanation for it in materialist terms. However, I do not think that any materialist explanation for it makes sense.
          Really? It's mostly caused by severing nerves then stimulating the severed end; the brain interprets the resulting signals as being caused by stimulation of the original nerve-endings. Similar to cutting a telephone wire and attaching a handset to the cut end to fake the source of a call.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Your brain has a map of your entire body in it. The nerves from your body all run to various areas in your brain. So when a nerve sends a signal, your brain registers it as a feeling in that part of your body.

            Brain surgeons have done test to determine which parts of the brain correspond with which parts of the body. They can electrically stimulate parts of a person's brain and they will feel it in that part of their body. Like if they stimulate the part that corresponds with their left finger, then they feel it in their left finger, even though nothing his touching their left finger. The same with smell, they can stimulate a part of the brain and you will smell certain smells. Or see various things. There are also parts of your brain that control the muscles in each part of your body. When you think of moving your arm, that part of the brain sends signals via the nerves down to the muscles that control your arm.
            Ok. I can accept what you wrote above as true. However, as you yourself say, "They can electrically stimulate parts of a person's brain and they will feel it in that part of their body." They don't feel it in their brain, but in that part of the body. That is, the feeling itself is in that part of the body. If you register the feeling in that part of the body, then you experience the feeling in that part of the body. If you experience the feeling in that part of the body, then the feeling is in that part of the body.
            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
            Sir James Jeans

            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
            Sir Isaac Newton

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              Really? It's mostly caused by severing nerves then stimulating the severed end; the brain interprets the resulting signals as being caused by stimulation of the original nerve-endings. Similar to cutting a telephone wire and attaching a handset to the cut end to fake the source of a call.
              Ok. So there is sensation generated by the nerves in the area cut off ?
              -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
              Sir James Jeans

              -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
              Sir Isaac Newton

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Because that part still exists in your brain. See the diagram above. There is a part of your brain that corresponds with the nerves in your left hand. When the nerves in your left hand send signals to your brain, it goes to that area and you feel your hand. Your brain sends signals back and you can move your hand.

                When your hand gets cut off, the part of the brain that represents your left hand is still there. The nerves that ran down into your hand are still there. They are damaged and start firing signals to your brain, where you still will feel your hand.

                Your brain can still try to move your hand too, but it is not there to move. But they have started developing artificial limbs that read the signals your brain sends into those nerves and using them to move the artificial limb. And they are starting to figure out how to give you a sense of touch by having sensors in the limb stimulate the nerves that correspond with that part of the body that is missing. So the "phantom limb" feeling will actually be sensing the artificial limb and then move it.

                That's pretty neat, huh?

                Here is an article about a hand they are trying to develop:

                https://newatlas.com/mind-controlled...fingers/41886/

                And here is an article about an arm they are developing that gives the person a sense of their artificial arm, feeling where it is and such:

                https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/14/...-bionic-limbs/
                But the feeling isn't in your brain. The person with a phantom limb perceives* some sensation there. But to perceive* a sensation over there implies that you have a sensation over there. Thus, you have a sensation over there.

                And yes, the science is certainly interesting.

                *EDIT: By perceives, I mean subjectively experiences.
                Last edited by Quantum Weirdness; 06-29-2018, 10:04 PM.
                -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                Sir James Jeans

                -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                Sir Isaac Newton

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                  Ok. So there is sensation generated by the nerves in the area cut off ?
                  .

                  Need clarification. The sensation of the missing limb is most likely based on the memories of the limb in the brain.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                    Ok. I can accept what you wrote above as true. However, as you yourself say, "They can electrically stimulate parts of a person's brain and they will feel it in that part of their body." They don't feel it in their brain, but in that part of the body. That is, the feeling itself is in that part of the body. If you register the feeling in that part of the body, then you experience the feeling in that part of the body. If you experience the feeling in that part of the body, then the feeling is in that part of the body.
                    No, all feeling from the body happens in the brain. Your brain interprets it as a feeling in the place where the nerve sent from. This is not hard, QW. Your brain can't feel anything of itself - if you stick a pin in your brain you won't say "ow someone stuck my brain". It just receives signals from the body.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                      Ok. So there is sensation generated by the nerves in the area cut off ?
                      No, there is sensation generated by the nerves that previously led to the area cut off, but are now truncated.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                        But the feeling isn't in your brain. The person with a phantom limb perceives* some sensation there. But to perceive* a sensation over there implies that you have a sensation over there.
                        Have you never watched TV?
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          Have you never watched TV?
                          Venture Brothers reference?



                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                            But the feeling isn't in your brain. The person with a phantom limb perceives* some sensation there. But to perceive* a sensation over there implies that you have a sensation over there. Thus, you have a sensation over there.

                            And yes, the science is certainly interesting.

                            *EDIT: By perceives, I mean subjectively experiences.
                            Actually no, perceptions in the brain do not have to originate in the limbs. Memories in many circumstances can initiate sensations within the brain.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I have a different question for QW: what is your understanding of the soul's relationship to the body? It seems to me that you're saying that the soul "fills" the body. Hence, there being leftover soul that's still there when a limb is removed. Am I understanding you correctly?
                              "Concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it. Remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being; remind yourself what nature demands of people. Then do it, without hesitation, and speak the truth as you see it. But with kindness. With humility. Without hypocrisy."
                              -Marcus Aurelius

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