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Mark 16:9-20 Epilogue.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    We may note that there is an error in Mark 16:13:

    "Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either." (Mk 16:12–13)

    But they did believe!

    "They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, 'It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.'Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread." (Lk 24:33–35)

    So I conclude that this passage is not Scripture...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Are you sure that Mark (16:13) did not by the Holy Spirit report what was the intervening event of unbelief prior to Jesus appearing as Luke reports (Luke 24:33-39)?
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Are you sure that Mark (16:13) did not by the Holy Spirit report what was the intervening event of unbelief prior to Jesus appearing as Luke reports (Luke 24:33-39)?
      "they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, 'It is true! The Lord has risen...'" They found them saying "he has risen," so I don't think there is a place to put unbelief. Also, Jesus in Mark 16 is said to rebuke them for their (apparently current) unbelief, so it seems the unbelief in Mark persisted.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        "they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, 'It is true! The Lord has risen...'" They found them saying "he has risen," so I don't think there is a place to put unbelief. Also, Jesus in Mark 16 is said to rebuke them for their (apparently current) unbelief, so it seems the unbelief in Mark persisted.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        So what was the need again for Jesus to show Himself to the eleven as described (Luke 24:33-39)?
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #19
          The mere addition or omission of details does not make a contradiction of what was true.

          Mark 16:8, ". . . neither said they any thing to any man; . . ."
          Luke 24:9 , ". . . told all these things . . ."
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            So what was the need again for Jesus to show Himself to the eleven as described (Luke 24:33-39)?
            To confirm again to them that he had risen.

            "After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." (Acts 1:3)

            The mere addition or omission of details does not make a contradiction of what was true.

            Mark 16:8, ". . . neither said they any thing to any man; . . ."
            Luke 24:9 , ". . . told all these things . . ."
            Well, I can see a way to reconcile these two passages, if the women didn't speak to anyone on the way back. But I don't see a way to reconcile these other two passages.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              To confirm again to them that he had risen.

              "After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." (Acts 1:3)


              Well, I can see a way to reconcile these two passages, if the women didn't speak to anyone on the way back. But I don't see a way to reconcile these other two passages.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Luke does not mention the unbelief. That is all.
              The parallel text:
              Mark 16:13, ". . . they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. . . ."
              Luke 24:33, ". . . and them that were with them, . . ."
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                The epilogue documents the early disbelief.
                Mark 16:11, ". . . believed not. . . ."
                Mark 16:13, ". . . neither believed they them. . . ."
                Mark 16:14, ". . . He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief . . ."

                Luke does make note of this disbelief, but gives its positive outcome.
                Luke 24:41, ". . . And while they yet believed not for joy, . . ."
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  We may note that there is an error in Mark 16:13:

                  "Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either." (Mk 16:12–13)

                  But they did believe!

                  "They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, 'It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.'Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread." (Lk 24:33–35)

                  So I conclude that this passage is not Scripture...

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  Not once in Lk 24:33-35 is it said that the Eleven believed in the two disciples who were travelling on the road to Emmaus. In fact, in the verses immediately after it's confirmed that they still did not believe:

                  Scripture Verse: Luke 24:36-43

                  36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

                  37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

                  40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  In other words, Luke is in agreement with Mark that the Eleven did not believe Jesus had risen, even after the two travelling disciples told them they had seen the risen Jesus.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 37818
                    Luke does make note of this disbelief, but gives its positive outcome.
                    Luke 24:41, ". . . And while they yet believed not for joy, . . ."
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill
                    But they did believe!

                    "They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, 'It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.' Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread." (Lk 24:33–35)
                    Not once in Lk 24:33-35 is it said that the Eleven believed in the two disciples …

                    In other words, Luke is in agreement with Mark that the Eleven did not believe Jesus had risen, even after the two travelling disciples told them they had seen the risen Jesus.
                    But it is recorded that they did believe Jesus had risen: 'It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.' (Luke 24:34). So I conclude that their difficulty was in believing that it was Jesus who was appearing to them, they thought he was a ghost.

                    "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." (Lk 24:38–39)

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      But it is recorded that they did believe Jesus had risen: 'It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.' (Luke 24:34). So I conclude that their difficulty was in believing that it was Jesus who was appearing to them, they thought he was a ghost.
                      Ok, but that still does not show that Mark 16:13 is wrong when it says the disciples did not believe the two travelling disciples. Luke seems to be saying that the two disciples immediately returned to Jerusalem to tell the Eleven (and the other disciples who where with them) that they had seen Jesus in a physical form, but the Eleven did not believe them, and thought Jesus had risen in some sort of spiritual sense instead, which is why Jesus rebukes them for their doubts and allows them to touch Him and eats in front of them to show them that he's not a purely spiritual being/ghost, but a someone with a body of flesh and bones.

                      So, as I understand it:

                      Luke is saying that Jesus appeared to the two disciples heading to Emmaus, who recognized Him as He is breaking the bread in their house, affirming that He has a physical body that can interact with other physical matter. They immediately returned to the Eleven in Jerusalem, who told them that the women were right, and that Jesus had risen, but they didn't believe He had risen in a physical manner, but in a spiritual sense. The two disciples then recounted what happened as they were travelling to Emmaus and how they recognized Jesus as He was breaking the bread, but the Eleven still didn't believe Jesus had risen in a physical sense. Not until Jesus Himself appeared before them and asked them to confirm that he had a physical body by touching him and seeing him eat food in front of them did they believe what the two disciples from Emmaus told them (that He had risen physically, and not just spiritually)

                      In other words, Mark and Luke does not seem to be in disagreement on this topic. Mark is saying that the Eleven didn't believe the two disciples when they told them that Jesus had appeared to them on the road to Emmaus, while Luke adds goes into further detail and explains that the Eleven didn't believe the two disciples when they told them that Jesus had appeared to them in a physical body, which is evidenced by the fact that the two disciples saw Jesus breaking the bread and so would have known that He had a physical body and by Jesus rebuking the Eleven for their unbelief after the two disciples recount to them what happened on the road to Emmaus, which would not have made any sense if they simply told them Jesus had appeared to them but didn't specify in what manner (as a spirit or in a physical body), as the eleven already believed that Jesus had risen, they just though He had risen as a spirit. The Emmaus travelers must have told the Eleven that Jesus had appeared to them with a physical body, but the Eleven didn't believe them, which is why Jesus rebukes them for their unbelief when He appears in front of them.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Man, looking at the post I wrote above, I really need to learn how to format my posts better and stop writing such redundant sentences. My eyes started to glaze over as I was trying to reread what I wrote.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          John notes that they had a problem believing the resurrection because they did not yet know the Scriptures (John 20:9). Jesus after He appeared to the Eleven explained the Scriptures to them (Luke 24:44-46, . . .).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Well, if the eleven believed that Jesus had risen as a spirit, then why didn't they believe it was him when they saw him (as they thought) as a ghost?

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              John notes that they had a problem believing the resurrection because they did not yet know the Scriptures (John 20:9). Jesus after He appeared to the Eleven explained the Scriptures to them (Luke 24:44-46, . . .).
                              But John "saw and believed"! (John 20:8) Even when he didn't understand from Scripture that Jesus would rise from the dead. But in any case, the disciples believed the two from Emmaus, saying "It is true! The Lord has risen..."

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                But in any case, the disciples believed the two from Emmaus, saying "It is true! The Lord has risen..."
                                The disciples said what they said not as a response to what the two from Emmaus told them, but in reference to what the women who discovered that the tomb was empty had been claiming. In fact, the travelers from Emmaus didn't recount their story until after the Eleven had said what you quoted above.

                                Scripture Verse: Luke 24:33-35

                                33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Comment

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