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The More We Evolve, the Less We Need God

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  • The More We Evolve, the Less We Need God

    I just listened to this Intelligence Squared Debate. I found it fascinating. Would be interested in the points of view of others. The title speaks for itself. The proposition being debated is whether or not humanity continues to need god as we continue to move forward with our understanding of the universe and science. I surprised to find that 47% agreed with the proposition before the debate, 31% disagreed, and 22% were undecided. After the debate, 67% agree, 26% disagreed, and 7% were undecided.

    Personally, I think the two speaking against the proposition brought a philosophical argument to the table that was way over the head of the listening audience.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    First, merely increasing our general knowledge is not the same as evolving.

    Second, it's a silly idea. Sort of like saying the more me understand about hypothermia the less we need to dress warmly when it's freezing outside. Okay, not a perfect analogy but it's 4:30 AM.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #3
      Considering God made and is holding the universe together, I say we still need him.

      This is like a 3-year-old saying they don't need their parents any more because they know how to use the potty and can walk.

      Comment


      • #4
        False ideas of God all fail.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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        • #5
          Atheists seem to have the idea that we just use God as an explanation for how the universe works, and once we understand it, we don't need him any more. But that isn't true. God wants us to understand his universe. To explore. That doesn't make us need him less, it helps us appreciate him more. The more I know about science and the universe, the more impressed I am with it's complexity and wonder and how great God is.

          Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            First, merely increasing our general knowledge is not the same as evolving.
            I don't think biological evolution is the only form of evolution there is.

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Second, it's a silly idea. Sort of like saying the more me understand about hypothermia the less we need to dress warmly when it's freezing outside. Okay, not a perfect analogy but it's 4:30 AM.
            Yeah, this one wasn't so hot. If the god notion of god has always been a god of the gaps, then the idea that such a god would be less relevant/necessary follows pretty naturally. The speakers were clear that they were not debating the existence of god, merely the necessity of god in the face of growing knowledge and understanding of our world and our societies. I was fascinated because it is essentially my experience, and my observation of the pattern of history. It also explains the surge of secularism and the retrenchment of religions. "Nones" are now the fastest growing population segment (from a religious perspective).
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Considering God made and is holding the universe together, I say we still need him.

              This is like a 3-year-old saying they don't need their parents any more because they know how to use the potty and can walk.
              Unless, of course, there actually is no god holding things together...
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Atheists seem to have the idea that we just use God as an explanation for how the universe works, and once we understand it, we don't need him any more. But that isn't true. God wants us to understand his universe. To explore. That doesn't make us need him less, it helps us appreciate him more. The more I know about science and the universe, the more impressed I am with it's complexity and wonder and how great God is.

                Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
                My experience, and understanding of history, is the opposite. Historically, gods have filled three very specific roles:
                • They answer "how stuff works" for societies with limited ability to explore their surroundings;
                • They provide a mechanism for social control, by defining morality as "the will of god."
                • They provide a mechanism for answering the great questions abut human purpose/meaning (the death conundrum).


                These seem to be universal. For some there are also personal/relational elements. The first item on the list is what the debate was all about. The second item on the list is in a period of flux as the world becomes more secularized and societies find different ways to map out their moral paths. I know there is a love of pointing to the most egregious examples of non-theistic rule, but the fact is we have 24 major countries representing almost half the world's population that are predominantly irreligious. They include such countries as the UK, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, France, Belgium, Spain, Finland, Australia, and Austria (to name a few). These are perfectly functional governments with wide acceptance for their social and domestic policies. There are a lot of countries with no numbers on this list, and I cannot believe it's because their number is zero percent (New Zealand?). I suspect it is because the information is not available, so the actual number may well be much higher than 24.

                As for the final question, the secular world is not having an outbreak of despair because most of us don't believe we will live eternally. Indeed, many of these countries score higher on the "happiness" index than so-called religious countries.

                I think the idea of god is losing its grip on humanity.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Unless, of course, there actually is no god holding things together...
                  Then the question is meaningless to begin with.

                  I am always amazed at how much time and effort Atheists put into something they don't believe in.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Then the question is meaningless to begin with.

                    I am always amazed at how much time and effort Atheists put into something they don't believe in.
                    Actually, it's not. I don't think the debate was about "god" so much as it was about the "idea of god." They were explicit that they were not debating the existence of god. But even if there is no god, there is no question that the "idea of god" is still prevalent in the world, and still strongly influences politics and society in general.

                    And I am not sure why you are surprised. Atheists have to confront the idea of god daily. Because god wills it, Jihadists are blowing us up (as well as you) in those marketplaces. Because "god wills it," we are struggling to get LGBTQ rights recognized and respected. We live in a society country where it is still less of a political obstacle to be an admitted homosexual than an admitted atheist in Congress, where we still do not have a single admitted atheist. We have god on our money, god in our pledge, and god at the start of every political event. We are fighting to have gun controls put in place, but that flies in the face of our "inalienable rights" which arise from...(wait for it...) god!

                    Contrary to popular belief, most of the atheists I know are not looking to keep others from believing in god, or practice their faith. They are looking to be able to live without the constant intrusion of "god" in our day-to-day lives. They are not our beliefs.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Actually, it's not. I don't think the debate was about "god" so much as it was about the "idea of god." They were explicit that they were not debating the existence of god. But even if there is no god, there is no question that the "idea of god" is still prevalent in the world, and still strongly influences politics and society in general.
                      OK, then your objection that there might no God to my post is out-of-bounds of the discussion.

                      And I am not sure why you are surprised. Atheists have to confront the idea of god daily. Because god wills it, Jihadists are blowing us up (as well as you) in those marketplaces. Because "god wills it," we are struggling to get LGBTQ rights recognized and respected. We live in a society country where it is still less of a political obstacle to be an admitted homosexual than an admitted atheist in Congress, where we still do not have a single admitted atheist. We have god on our money, god in our pledge, and god at the start of every political event. We are fighting to have gun controls put in place, but that flies in the face of our "inalienable rights" which arise from...(wait for it...) god!

                      Contrary to popular belief, most of the atheists I know are not looking to keep others from believing in god, or practice their faith. They are looking to be able to live without the constant intrusion of "god" in our day-to-day lives. They are not our beliefs.
                      I was more thinking about hanging around theology sites, debating the existence of God (you don't typically do that so I am not talking about you in this case) or making an entire career about trying to prove God doesn't exist (Dawkins, Carrier, various atheist theologians, etc)

                      I have no problem with atheists discussing things that affect them directly, like Muslim terrorism, or Christian "homophobia" etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If they weren't debating the existence of God (ok, fine), then the question presupposes His nonexistence. If God exists, then us humans contemplating how little we need Him as we continue to evolve just seems silly.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          OK, then your objection that there might no God to my post is out-of-bounds of the discussion.
                          Except that you made the positive claim that god is holding everything together... which is more than just "the idea of god."

                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          I was more thinking about hanging around theology sites, debating the existence of God (you don't typically do that so I am not talking about you in this case) or making an entire career about trying to prove God doesn't exist (Dawkins, Carrier, various atheist theologians, etc)

                          I have no problem with atheists discussing things that affect them directly, like Muslim terrorism, or Christian "homophobia" etc.
                          Well, it's certainly not my cup of tea, but I can understand some atheists going on a mission to "eradicate god" from our public sphere. I find many of these people to be more "anti-theists" than "a-theists." But I have to admit there are parts of theism that keep impacting my everyday life that I could live without.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                            If they weren't debating the existence of God (ok, fine), then the question presupposes His nonexistence. If God exists, then us humans contemplating how little we need Him as we continue to evolve just seems silly.
                            You'd have to listen to the audiocast. I have to admit it kept sliding over the line a bit, but I think the original intent of the debate topic (which was not well worded) was needing god to understand our universe and our society. I was more surprised by the outcome, though I have to admit then when I heard the arguments of the two guys arguing against the idea, they were so out there in philosophical limbo land, I can see how they lost 5% while the people arguing for the proposition gained 20%.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              You'd have to listen to the audiocast. I have to admit it kept sliding over the line a bit, but I think the original intent of the debate topic (which was not well worded) was needing god to understand our universe and our society. I was more surprised by the outcome, though I have to admit then when I heard the arguments of the two guys arguing against the idea, they were so out there in philosophical limbo land, I can see how they lost 5% while the people arguing for the proposition gained 20%.
                              Yeah, I probably shouldn't comment on stuff like this when I haven't listened to the audio....
                              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                              Comment

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