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The More We Evolve, the Less We Need God

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  • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    Why does there need to be one?
    What one man calls evil another man calls good, if there is no objective standard to decide between the two claims then the terms evil or good become insignificant. No more than mere preference like I said earlier. I like vanilla you like chocolate.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      But what is there in your world but the natural? If the Communist Chinese believe it is a moral good to murder millions of dissenters, and we don't,
      Nonsense! The Chinese “moral good” is the same as ours, i.e. the maintenance of social order. It’s their methodology where we disagree. Ideological totalitarianism, either religious or secular, never works well.

      where is the objective rule or standard that decides between these two opinions?
      There is no objective moral standard.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Until we let fly thousands of those nukes...Thanks to science we finally have the ability to pretty much decimate our own race.
      Thanks to our moral values we have the ability the restrain our violent impulses.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        What one man calls evil another man calls good, if there is no objective standard to decide between the two claims then the terms evil or good become insignificant. No more than mere preference like I said earlier. I like vanilla you like chocolate.
        Suppose it were a fact that all chocolate-lovers believed that all vanilla-lovers should be murdered. Would that fact, in your opinion, be irrelevant to any discussion about whether it was rational to prefer chocolate over vanilla?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
          Suppose it were a fact that all chocolate-lovers believed that all vanilla-lovers should be murdered. Would that fact, in your opinion, be irrelevant to any discussion about whether it was rational to prefer chocolate over vanilla?
          Well no, if all chocolate-lovers had the power to impose their beliefs then by definition they would be morally right since there still is no objective way to judge these issues. So chocolate-lovers would see their position as moral and good, the vanilla-lovers would see their position the same. With no right answer, neither position is more valid or correct than the other.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Nonsense! The Chinese “moral good” is the same as ours, i.e. the maintenance of social order. It’s their methodology where we disagree. Ideological totalitarianism, either religious or secular, never works well.
            I'm not sure what you mean by not working well. They certainly maintain social cohesion in China and are becoming an economic and military world power.


            Thanks to our moral values we have the ability the restrain our violent impulses.
            So far...
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              I'm not sure what you mean by not working well.

              They certainly maintain social cohesion in China and are becoming an economic and military world power.
              China and Russia did as much when both countries were absolute monarchies. But, as has happened in Vietnam and Cuba, both are moving towards more open systems of government. This is a better, more sustainable way to maintain social cohesion. At least you now acknowledge the need for social cohesion in a social species such as us.

              So far...
              A nuclear holocaust is not inevitable, most recognise the importance of preserving civilisation. As we move further away from a tribal mentality of nation against nation, religion against religion, to the more universal values as per the Declaration of Human Rights the better chance we have to survive.
              Last edited by Tassman; 07-16-2018, 11:57 PM.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                China and Russia did as much when both countries were absolute monarchies. But, as has happened in Vietnam and Cuba, both are moving towards more open systems of government. This is a better, more sustainable way to maintain social cohesion. At least you now acknowledge the need for social cohesion in a social species such as us.
                The point is that totalitarianism is not immoral in your world, and in our past debates you made clear that you would have no problem disrupting social cohesion if it is for a leftist cause you agree with.

                A nuclear holocaust is not inevitable, most recognise the importance of preserving civilisation. As we move further away from a tribal mentality of nation against nation, religion against religion, to the more universal values as per the Declaration of Human Rights the better chance we have to survive.
                Oh please with the Declaration of Human Rights thing, the majority of countries have not even signed on, and many of the countries that did violate it. As far as a nuclear holocaust not being inevitable, we will see, but if human history is any guide I am not hopeful...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  The point is that totalitarianism is not immoral in your world,
                  Totalitarianism is not immoral per se it's just not the best way to achieve stable social cohesion.

                  and in our past debates you made clear that you would have no problem disrupting social cohesion if it is for a leftist cause you agree with.
                  Your version of "disrupting social cohesion" was denying Cons the right to discriminate against minority groups.

                  Oh please with thing, the majority of countries have not even signed on, and many of the countries that did violate it.
                  the Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the the United Nations General Assembly of which your country and mine are signatories. It is an ideal to which the civilised world aspires.

                  As far as a nuclear holocaust not being inevitable, we will see, but if human history is any guide I am not hopeful...
                  Not at all. According to Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of Our Nature", international violence has declined dramatically over the millennia.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Well no, if all chocolate-lovers had the power to impose their beliefs then by definition they would be morally right
                    By what definition?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                      By what definition?
                      Well if the majority does not define right what does? The minority?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Totalitarianism is not immoral per se it's just not the best way to achieve stable social cohesion.
                        That is debatable. Liberal democracies have any number of internal factions that are often at odds causing much social unrest. Of course the majority could just run roughshod over the minority, and that would just be another form of totalitarianism.

                        Your version of "disrupting social cohesion" was denying Cons the right to discriminate against minority groups.
                        But these things do cause social unrest. And if social cohesion is the goal then things that upset it (whether you agree with them or not) are evil.

                        the Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the the United Nations General Assembly of which your country and mine are signatories. It is an ideal to which the civilised world aspires.
                        I have no idea what you mean by the world. All the countries that did not sign? Communist countries? Muslim countries?

                        Not at all. According to Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of Our Nature", international violence has declined dramatically over the millennia.
                        Pinker's research has nothing to do with whether we will one day use nukes or not. Especially with the rise of Islam and Communist China. Technology makes starvation less of a factor, and more of our basic needs are met, but human nature has not changed. Knock out those modern conveniences and see how fast we revert to our more base nature.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          That is debatable. Liberal democracies have any number of internal factions that are often at odds causing much social unrest. Of course the majority could just run roughshod over the minority, and that would just be another form of totalitarianism.
                          As Churchill wisely said: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

                          But these things do cause social unrest. And if social cohesion is the goal then things that upset it (whether you agree with them or not) are evil.
                          Not "evil", just unhelpful when certain factions or belief systems demand special priviliges over and above everyone else.

                          I have no idea what you mean by the world. All the countries that did not sign? Communist countries? Muslim countries?
                          Most countries are members of the United Nations and those that are not are observers. As far as our two countries are concerned we are signatories to the Declaration of Human Rights which was adopted by the the United Nations General Assembly.

                          Pinker's research has nothing to do with whether we will one day use nukes or not. Especially with the rise of Islam and Communist China. Technology makes starvation less of a factor, and more of our basic needs are met, but human nature has not changed.
                          It's our "human nature" that has kept us safe so far despite the rise of different ideologies....either religious or political.

                          Knock out those modern conveniences and see how fast we revert to our more base nature.
                          It's our "base nature", i.e. our essential nature, that has resulted in violence in the world dramatically declining in both the long term and in the short term. I reject your religious notion of the 'total depravity' of Man.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            As Churchill wisely said: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."
                            But you keep touting "social cohesion" - totalitarian systems like North Korea, Cuba or China are much more cohesive that liberal democracies.


                            Not "evil", just unhelpful when certain factions or belief systems demand special priviliges over and above everyone else.
                            I have no idea what you are talking about, in liberal democracies you will always have competing factions. To one degree or another. Democracy by it very nature lends itself to social disruption. So social cohesion is not and can not be the most important consideration, it isn't even to you when it concerns a cause you agree with. In those cases you are quite willing to overthrow the status quo and disrupt the social order.


                            Most countries are members of the United Nations and those that are not are observers. As far as our two countries are concerned we are signatories to the Declaration of Human Rights which was adopted by the the United Nations General Assembly.
                            Again Tass, you are the one throwing around the word "world." Again, only a minority of countries have signed on to the DoHR.


                            It's our "human nature" that has kept us safe so far despite the rise of different ideologies....either religious or political.
                            And it is our human nature that causes war.

                            It's our "base nature", i.e. our essential nature, that has resulted in violence in the world dramatically declining in both the long term and in the short term. I reject your religious notion of the 'total depravity' of Man.
                            The only reason there is a decline, if there is, is because modern technology has helped meet our basic needs. Take that away and watch...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Well if the majority does not define right what does? The minority?
                              That does not answer my question - - unless you are taking the position that whatever a majority says is morally right actually is morally right. If that is your position, then just say so and I'll work with it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                                That does not answer my question - - unless you are taking the position that whatever a majority says is morally right actually is morally right. If that is your position, then just say so and I'll work with it.
                                Then you need to rephrase your question because I'm not understanding what you are asking.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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