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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    It wasn't an ridiculous example Carp, so answer the question. Can I show the man from scripture that adultery is wrong - yes or no?
    There are passages in scripture that say that, yes. But I see you avoided my list.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense Carp, the bottom line is the same. Moral disagreement. That because Christians may disagree that opens me up to the accusation of zero sum game. Yet your moral theory also lends itself to moral disagreement. Stop being hypocritical.
    Of course the bottom line is the same, Seer. The difference is that moral relativism/subjectivism predicts that outcome, and doesn't expect otherwise. It recognizes that moral disagreement may not be resolved, and identifies strategies for dealing with that situation.

    The hypocrisy, Seer, if we are going to toss out accusations, is living in a world of widespread moral disagreement while insisting there is an absolute/objective moral truth and they know what it is, without being able to demonstrate its existence, or arrive at a common understanding of it.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      How did we start arguing about moral relativism again? I thought we were discussing whether the OT Law in totality applies to Christians or not?
      Seer raised it in response to my observation that arguing "biblical justification" is a zero-sum game.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        How did we start arguing about moral relativism again? I thought we were discussing whether the OT Law in totality applies to Christians or not?
        It's all Carp's fault, he triggered me!
        Last edited by seer; 07-26-2018, 11:26 AM.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          There are passages in scripture that say that, yes. But I see you avoided my list.
          No Carp, you are using your typical dodge. So again, can I show the man from scripture that adultery is wrong - yes or no? And once you answer that I will be happy to get to the other points.

          Of course the bottom line is the same, Seer. The difference is that moral relativism/subjectivism predicts that outcome, and doesn't expect otherwise. It recognizes that moral disagreement may not be resolved, and identifies strategies for dealing with that situation.

          The hypocrisy, Seer, if we are going to toss out accusations, is living in a world of widespread moral disagreement while insisting there is an absolute/objective moral truth and they know what it is, without being able to demonstrate its existence, or arrive at a common understanding of it.
          And again Carp, your zero sum game accusation applies equally your beliefs, because your accusation was based on moral disagreement. It was not based on what a theory predicts or not or whether one believes in objective moral truths or not. Those were not the criterion that you used. Stop trying to clean it up.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            No Carp, you are using your typical dodge. So again, can I show the man from scripture that adultery is wrong - yes or no? And once you answer that I will be happy to get to the other points.
            I've already noted that there are anti-adultery passages in the bible. So, for the rest of the points...?

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            And again Carp, your zero sum game accusation applies equally your beliefs, because your accusation was based on moral disagreement. It was not based on what a theory predicts or not or whether one believes in objective moral truths or not. Those were not the criterion that you used. Stop trying to clean it up.
            Your opinion is duly noted. We will have to agree to disagree. Another cycle of responses is not going to get us anywhere.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              It's all Carp's fault, he triggered me!
              You need to keep your triggers more closely guarded...
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                You need to keep your triggers more closely guarded...
                I need a safe place!
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I've already noted that there are anti-adultery passages in the bible. So, for the rest of the points...?
                  Good so I can show that adultery is wrong from Scripture.

                  We'll take one at a time. No, women should not be pastors: 1 Timothy 2, 3

                  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

                  This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
                  Last edited by seer; 07-26-2018, 12:11 PM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Good so I can show that adultery is wrong from Scripture.
                    You can show that there are passages in the bible that claim adultery is wrong.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    We'll take one at a time. No, women should not be pastors: 1 Timothy 2, 3
                    And yet there are numerous Christian sects with women in ministerial roles who equally claim biblical foundations based on the presence of women ministers (deacons, bishops) in the early church. So they claim they are right, and you claim you are right, and each of you has biblical passages to point to to make your case. There is a decent summary here. The author points out that in that same passage you quote, women are also prohibited from braiding their hair, wearing jewelry, or wearing expensive clothes, yet we see little implementation or emphasis of these proscriptions in most Christian churches.

                    My point is the inconsistency of the application of these "rules" and the wide disagreement about what the bible does and does not say, not to mention the places where the bible appears to contradict itself (as the author points out). None of this is a surprise - these are books written by men, and not even the same man. Inconsistencies are inevitable.

                    This is why I find "arguments from scripture" to be a zero-sum game.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      And yet there are numerous Christian sects with women in ministerial roles who equally claim biblical foundations based on the presence of women ministers (deacons, bishops) in the early church. So they claim they are right, and you claim you are right, and each of you has biblical passages to point to to make your case. There is a decent summary here. The author points out that in that same passage you quote, women are also prohibited from braiding their hair, wearing jewelry, or wearing expensive clothes, yet we see little implementation or emphasis of these proscriptions in most Christian churches.

                      My point is the inconsistency of the application of these "rules" and the wide disagreement about what the bible does and does not say, not to mention the places where the bible appears to contradict itself (as the author points out). None of this is a surprise - these are books written by men, and not even the same man. Inconsistencies are inevitable.

                      This is why I find "arguments from scripture" to be a zero-sum game.
                      I'm not sure what your link is getting at. We are not speaking of prophetess or deacons, both have female examples in the New Testament, but we are speaking of women as overseers or pastors. There is no inconsistency in Scripture, there are no such allowances for females to have authority over men. And Paul is clear. And you will not find such in the New Testament, but you do find female prophets and deacons. It is not my fault that feminists don't like it. And I find moral opinions from relativists to be a zero sum game - so we are even.

                      But this is what you like to do Carp. Even if this is a vague issue, where a sincere Christian could come down on either side, it does mean that is the case for all issues or moral questions. The vast majority of the New Testament's teachings and principles are quite straight forward and easily understood.
                      Last edited by seer; 07-26-2018, 12:58 PM.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I'm not sure what your link is getting at. We are not speaking of prophetess or deacons, both have female examples in the New Testament, but we are speaking of women as overseers or pastors. There is no inconsistency in Scripture, there are no such allowances for females to have authority over men. And Paul is clear. And you will not find such in the New Testament, but you do find female prophets and deacons. It is not my fault that feminists don't like it. And I find moral opinions from relativists to be a zero sum game - so we are even.

                        But this is what you like to do Carp. Even if this is a vague issue, where a sincere Christian could come down on either side, it does mean that is the case for all issues or moral questions. The vast majority of the New Testament's teachings and principles are quite straight forward and easily understood.
                        Seer, that last part is a dodge - but at least its an acknowledgement that there is a lot of gray area in the bible, which is why we have so many differing Christian sects with so many different rules and proscriptions and all of them claim to capture the original intent/spirit of Jesus.

                        You folks like to claim absolutes and objective truths - but then have a real hard time being consistently absolute/objective. You're all over the map - with some things being widely held to (e.g., murder is wrong) and others being widely different (e.g., role of women, homosexuality, contraception, abortion, etc.).
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Seer, that last part is a dodge - but at least its an acknowledgement that there is a lot of gray area in the bible, which is why we have so many differing Christian sects with so many different rules and proscriptions and all of them claim to capture the original intent/spirit of Jesus.
                          I never said there were not gray areas Carp, but that does not mean that the vast majority of moral teachings in the New Testament are not clear - they are.

                          You folks like to claim absolutes and objective truths - but then have a real hard time being consistently absolute/objective. You're all over the map - with some things being widely held to (e.g., murder is wrong) and others being widely different (e.g., role of women, homosexuality, contraception, abortion, etc.).
                          The role of women is not a moral issue, I see no biblical prohibition against contraception, homosexuality is clearly prohibited. The killing of the innocent unborn human beings is a moral wrong. And moral disagreement not not bear on whether universal moral truths exist or not.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Seer, that last part is a dodge - but at least its an acknowledgement that there is a lot of gray area in the bible, which is why we have so many differing Christian sects with so many different rules and proscriptions and all of them claim to capture the original intent/spirit of Jesus.

                            You folks like to claim absolutes and objective truths - but then have a real hard time being consistently absolute/objective. You're all over the map - with some things being widely held to (e.g., murder is wrong) and others being widely different (e.g., role of women, homosexuality, contraception, abortion, etc.).
                            so? the bible isn't a text book or rule book. Yes there are gray areas and there are black and white areas. How is that a problem?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              I never said there were not gray areas Carp, but that does not mean that the vast majority of moral teachings in the New Testament are not clear - they are.
                              What is and is not "clear" is also an issue of some variation.

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              The role of women is not a moral issue, I see no biblical prohibition against contraception, homosexuality is clearly prohibited. The killing of the innocent unborn human beings is a moral wrong. And moral disagreement not not bear on whether universal moral truths exist or not.
                              I think you will find more than a few women who disagree with your assessment about the "role of women." Some sects do point to bibilical texts to substantiate a proscription on contraception. Some point to scriptural texts to defend their positive stance on homosexuality. The bible has been pointed to to defend slavery, religious war, and even torture.

                              And I agree that the existence of moral disagreement does not bear on the existence or nonexistence of moral absolutes. The inability of anyone to demonstrate the existence of such absolutes (while simultaneously insisting everyone should be adhering to them) bears on this.

                              Really, Seer - if I were to make the decision today to adopt the "Christian" moral framework, I'd next have to decide WHICH Christian moral framework I would adhere to. I see no improvement on relative/subjective morality - so why not call the thing exactly what it appears to be: relative and subjective?
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                so? the bible isn't a text book or rule book. Yes there are gray areas and there are black and white areas. How is that a problem?
                                It's only a problem for the person claiming universal absolutes. It's not a problem for me.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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