Originally posted by Tassman
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The More We Evolve, the Less We Need God
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostA physical objective presents itself to your senses
We don't have to know how something works in order to be justified in believing that it does work.
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow do you even get off the ground with this? What is innately good is that which conforms to your personal opinion? Collective opinion?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe point is Carp, Scripture is not as gray as you suggest, whether you believe these are God given commands or not, there are many, even most, that are clearly understood.
For all of the claims to an absolute/objective code, Seer, you cannot demonstrate the existence of one, and Christianity appears to function pretty much like the rest of the world: relatively and subjectively.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAcknowledged - there are some precepts that are consistent and clearly laid out. They are, from my experience, the more rare ones. And for the rest, Christians simply choose which passages to follow and which to ignore to justify their particular take on the "Christian moral code." Which makes Christianity not that much different from the rest of humanity. There are moral codes that are widely held and commonly agreed upon. Then there are those less widely held and in contention.
For all of the claims to an absolute/objective code, Seer, you cannot demonstrate the existence of one, and Christianity appears to function pretty much like the rest of the world: relatively and subjectively.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is nonsense Carp, they are not the rare ones. As far as moral commands I bet I'm on the same page as the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and Bible believing Protestants to 90%.
Originally posted by seer View PostWhat are you talking about? I have again and again listed universal moral truths according to Scripture. And no, like the rest of the world, I believe in universal or objective moral truths.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer - the bible contains thousands of moral and legal prohibitions. The 90% mark you talk about agreeing upon is actually only a fraction of those moral precepts. Maybe 20% (though I admit I am guesstimating). And it's pretty much the same moral precepts the rest of us, Christian and non-Christian alike, adhere to . And they are precepts that predate Christianity, so Christianity cannot exactly take credit for outlining them.
You have listed precepts in the bible that most people agree with, Seer. The same precepts exist in the Q'uran, and most of the other holy books of the world, as well as civil legal and moral frameworks dating well before Christianity. Some of them date back to some of the earliest writings we have. They aren't "absolutes;" they are merely widely held.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen murder, lust, greed, selfishness, etc... are also essential characteristics of the human condition.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View PostI'm speaking of Christianity Carp, what New Testament moral commands would I, and the vast majority of Christians, disagree on?
And where did I say Christians outlined them, after all there are certain moral truths that are universal, written on the hearts of all men by God (Romans 2:13-16).
Right, because we are made in the image of God and have a God given moral sense we generally understand right from wrong, and grasp universal moral truths.Last edited by Tassman; 07-29-2018, 11:43 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIf there's no disagreement on what the New Testament has to say, why are there so many thousands of Christian denominations?
Only CERTAIN moral truths are "universal"? Which ones are they and how do you know?
Actually it's the other way around. We created God in our own image and attributed to him the qualities we value as a result of the natural evolution of human behaviour.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIndeed, but we choose to go with the positive social instincts rather than the negative ones, because they work better in maintaining a well-functioning, cohesive society.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI'm speaking of Christianity Carp, what New Testament moral commands would I, and the vast majority of Christians, disagree on? And where did I say Christians outlined them, after all there are certain moral truths that are universal, written on the hearts of all men by God (Romans 2:13-16).
And I note, Seer, that you are being inconsistent. When I point out commonly held views, I am "appealing to the masses." You appear to be doing the same thing.
Originally posted by seer View PostRight, because we are made in the image of God and have a God given moral sense we generally understand right from wrong, and grasp universal moral truths.
At this point, Seer, I think this horse is not only dead, it's been pulverized into unrecognizable proteins. I'll leave the last word to you unless you ask me a question I have not previously answered.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOr they are simply widely held because we are all human, all on the same planet, so most of us value common things: our lives, our freedom, our happiness, etc. We also pretty much all live in some form of community/society, so recognize the benefit to ourselves of commonly held moral principles. Christianity can claim they are "from god" and can claim they "originated them." They just can't show either claim to be true.
And I note, Seer, that you are being inconsistent. When I point out commonly held views, I am "appealing to the masses." You appear to be doing the same thing.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp I never claimed that Christians originated them, I do claim that these common moral principles are God given, for the reasons I stated. The fact that that option is not open to you, an atheist, is no surprise.
Nonsense Carp, I'm not appealing to the masses to claim that moral agreement proves universal moral truths, any more than moral disagreement disproves universal moral truths. I'm just providing Scripture references for why we believe that commonly held moral principles are influenced by God. Your position is that our moral sense is the accidental by product of the evolutionary process, I believe that moral sense is tied to something more permanent, real and universal.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSince you chose to misrepresent my views, I'll clarify. I do not think that morality is an accidental by-product of evolution. I think it is an inevitable product of sentience. Since sentience provides (at least short term) evolutionary advantage, it has been selected for and morality was inevitable.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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