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The More We Evolve, the Less We Need God

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    It is the essential characteristic of a social species such as us to instinctively exhibit direct and indirect reciprocity and altruism. Because, for any social species, the benefits of being part of an altruistic group outweigh the benefits of individualism. The moral values upon which we base our laws derive from these evolved qualities. And when we introduce a creator deity into the equation, as did our more primitive ancestors, we attribute to this deity the same qualities...only writ large.
    Then murder, lust, greed, selfishness, etc... are also essential characteristics of the human condition.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      A physical objective presents itself to your senses
      Plato might have said something like that. It makes linguistic sense, but in the modern world it makes no scientific sense.

      We don't have to know how something works in order to be justified in believing that it does work.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        How do you even get off the ground with this? What is innately good is that which conforms to your personal opinion? Collective opinion?
        Yes. By my moral standards, most people do good most of the time. By the moral standards of most people I know, most people do good most of the time. Even by the so-called Christian moral standard (whichever one you choose to follow), most people do good most of the time.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          The point is Carp, Scripture is not as gray as you suggest, whether you believe these are God given commands or not, there are many, even most, that are clearly understood.
          Acknowledged - there are some precepts that are consistent and clearly laid out. They are, from my experience, the more rare ones. And for the rest, Christians simply choose which passages to follow and which to ignore to justify their particular take on the "Christian moral code." Which makes Christianity not that much different from the rest of humanity. There are moral codes that are widely held and commonly agreed upon. Then there are those less widely held and in contention.

          For all of the claims to an absolute/objective code, Seer, you cannot demonstrate the existence of one, and Christianity appears to function pretty much like the rest of the world: relatively and subjectively.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Acknowledged - there are some precepts that are consistent and clearly laid out. They are, from my experience, the more rare ones. And for the rest, Christians simply choose which passages to follow and which to ignore to justify their particular take on the "Christian moral code." Which makes Christianity not that much different from the rest of humanity. There are moral codes that are widely held and commonly agreed upon. Then there are those less widely held and in contention.
            That is nonsense Carp, they are not the rare ones. As far as moral commands I bet I'm on the same page as the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and Bible believing Protestants to 90%.

            For all of the claims to an absolute/objective code, Seer, you cannot demonstrate the existence of one, and Christianity appears to function pretty much like the rest of the world: relatively and subjectively.
            What are you talking about? I have again and again listed universal moral truths according to Scripture. And no, like the rest of the world, I believe in universal or objective moral truths.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              That is nonsense Carp, they are not the rare ones. As far as moral commands I bet I'm on the same page as the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and Bible believing Protestants to 90%.
              Seer - the bible contains thousands of moral and legal prohibitions. The 90% mark you talk about agreeing upon is actually only a fraction of those moral precepts. Maybe 20% (though I admit I am guesstimating). And it's pretty much the same moral precepts the rest of us, Christian and non-Christian alike, adhere to . And they are precepts that predate Christianity, so Christianity cannot exactly take credit for outlining them.

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              What are you talking about? I have again and again listed universal moral truths according to Scripture. And no, like the rest of the world, I believe in universal or objective moral truths.
              You have listed precepts in the bible that most people agree with, Seer. The same precepts exist in the Q'uran, and most of the other holy books of the world, as well as civil legal and moral frameworks dating well before Christianity. Some of them date back to some of the earliest writings we have. They aren't "absolutes;" they are merely widely held.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Seer - the bible contains thousands of moral and legal prohibitions. The 90% mark you talk about agreeing upon is actually only a fraction of those moral precepts. Maybe 20% (though I admit I am guesstimating). And it's pretty much the same moral precepts the rest of us, Christian and non-Christian alike, adhere to . And they are precepts that predate Christianity, so Christianity cannot exactly take credit for outlining them.
                I'm speaking of Christianity Carp, what New Testament moral commands would I, and the vast majority of Christians, disagree on? And where did I say Christians outlined them, after all there are certain moral truths that are universal, written on the hearts of all men by God (Romans 2:13-16).


                You have listed precepts in the bible that most people agree with, Seer. The same precepts exist in the Q'uran, and most of the other holy books of the world, as well as civil legal and moral frameworks dating well before Christianity. Some of them date back to some of the earliest writings we have. They aren't "absolutes;" they are merely widely held.
                Right, because we are made in the image of God and have a God given moral sense we generally understand right from wrong, and grasp universal moral truths.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Then murder, lust, greed, selfishness, etc... are also essential characteristics of the human condition.
                  Indeed, but we choose to go with the positive social instincts rather than the negative ones, because they work better in maintaining a well-functioning, cohesive society.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    I'm speaking of Christianity Carp, what New Testament moral commands would I, and the vast majority of Christians, disagree on?
                    If there's no disagreement on what the New Testament has to say, why are there so many thousands of Christian denominations?

                    And where did I say Christians outlined them, after all there are certain moral truths that are universal, written on the hearts of all men by God (Romans 2:13-16).
                    Only CERTAIN moral truths are "universal"? Which ones are they and how do you know?

                    Right, because we are made in the image of God and have a God given moral sense we generally understand right from wrong, and grasp universal moral truths.
                    Actually it's the other way around. We created God in our own image and attributed to him the qualities we value as a result of the natural evolution of human behaviour.
                    Last edited by Tassman; 07-29-2018, 11:43 PM.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      If there's no disagreement on what the New Testament has to say, why are there so many thousands of Christian denominations?
                      That often has to do with church government, I have been in seven different churches (denominations) in my 28 years as a Christian and if they use Scripture as their source we will agree with 90% plus when it comes to the moral commands in the New Testament.



                      Only CERTAIN moral truths are "universal"? Which ones are they and how do you know?
                      I think largely what most of us would agree on.


                      Actually it's the other way around. We created God in our own image and attributed to him the qualities we value as a result of the natural evolution of human behaviour.
                      You don't know that.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Indeed, but we choose to go with the positive social instincts rather than the negative ones, because they work better in maintaining a well-functioning, cohesive society.
                        Why are they negative ones, obviously have offer a evolutionary advantage? And again Tass, you don't care about social cohesion because you are quite happy to upset that cohesion if it is for a cause you agree with.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I'm speaking of Christianity Carp, what New Testament moral commands would I, and the vast majority of Christians, disagree on? And where did I say Christians outlined them, after all there are certain moral truths that are universal, written on the hearts of all men by God (Romans 2:13-16).
                          Or they are simply widely held because we are all human, all on the same planet, so most of us value common things: our lives, our freedom, our happiness, etc. We also pretty much all live in some form of community/society, so recognize the benefit to ourselves of commonly held moral principles. Christianity can claim they are "from god" and can claim they "originated them." They just can't show either claim to be true.

                          And I note, Seer, that you are being inconsistent. When I point out commonly held views, I am "appealing to the masses." You appear to be doing the same thing.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Right, because we are made in the image of God and have a God given moral sense we generally understand right from wrong, and grasp universal moral truths.
                          Except that we have created gods in our own image and likeness, and have projected our moral beliefs on this being to give them authority. There is no god and, even if there were, this god would be another sentient individual with their own moral code. So their moral code would be no moral objective than mine. It might be more absolute if this god were eternal and the code never changed, but you cannot even show this god exists. So....

                          At this point, Seer, I think this horse is not only dead, it's been pulverized into unrecognizable proteins. I'll leave the last word to you unless you ask me a question I have not previously answered.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Or they are simply widely held because we are all human, all on the same planet, so most of us value common things: our lives, our freedom, our happiness, etc. We also pretty much all live in some form of community/society, so recognize the benefit to ourselves of commonly held moral principles. Christianity can claim they are "from god" and can claim they "originated them." They just can't show either claim to be true.
                            Carp I never claimed that Christians originated them, I do claim that these common moral principles are God given, for the reasons I stated. The fact that that option is not open to you, an atheist, is no surprise.

                            And I note, Seer, that you are being inconsistent. When I point out commonly held views, I am "appealing to the masses." You appear to be doing the same thing.
                            Nonsense Carp, I'm not appealing to the masses to claim that moral agreement proves universal moral truths, any more than moral disagreement disproves universal moral truths. I'm just providing Scripture references for why we believe that commonly held moral principles are influenced by God. Your position is that our moral sense is the accidental by product of the evolutionary process, I believe that moral sense is tied to something more permanent, real and universal.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Carp I never claimed that Christians originated them, I do claim that these common moral principles are God given, for the reasons I stated. The fact that that option is not open to you, an atheist, is no surprise.

                              Nonsense Carp, I'm not appealing to the masses to claim that moral agreement proves universal moral truths, any more than moral disagreement disproves universal moral truths. I'm just providing Scripture references for why we believe that commonly held moral principles are influenced by God. Your position is that our moral sense is the accidental by product of the evolutionary process, I believe that moral sense is tied to something more permanent, real and universal.
                              Since you chose to misrepresent my views, I'll clarify. I do not think that morality is an accidental by-product of evolution. I think it is an inevitable product of sentience. Since sentience provides (at least short term) evolutionary advantage, it has been selected for and morality was inevitable.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Since you chose to misrepresent my views, I'll clarify. I do not think that morality is an accidental by-product of evolution. I think it is an inevitable product of sentience. Since sentience provides (at least short term) evolutionary advantage, it has been selected for and morality was inevitable.
                                No, no it is not. Many species are solitary with almost no community interaction, therefore little or no moral interaction would be necessary. We could have been much more war like and murderous using our intelligence to destroy each other - we probably wouldn't flourish, or even survive as a species. So unlike other species that went extinct we won (so far) the evolutionary lottery.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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