Three irrefutable miracles.

[37818]

Baha'is do not believe absolute truths exist from the human perspective. God only knows the absolute. The subject to this thread is not about what I believe.

Even so, what you believe enters in.

God is only a Christian (?) from the perspective of some fallible human believers.

Christians know God because it is God who makes Himself kown to them.

It is not about the reasons for your claim, but rather But does your argument have reasonable logical convincing basis beyond the simple fact it is what you believe. You fail to present a reasonable logical convincing argument. There are too many bricks missing from your yellow brick road.

It so happens there is no logic nor wisdom nor understanding against there being uncaused existence. And this the identity of the self existent God.

[shunyadragon]

Natural law, if it were of the same thing as uncaused existence it is still something else. It would not merely just be uncaused existence it would be a second entity we might call uncaused cause. Existence and cause are two different things.

Our physical existence (Quantum World) would be the possible eternal existence. The eternal Natural Law could possibly be the uncaused cause of all cause and effect of our physical existence that arise from the possibly eternal Quantum zero-point world.

In which case it would not be uncaused existence, it would only included it. Meaning uncaused existence itself precedes it.

The eternal Quantum zero-point existence and Natural Law could possibly coexist eternally.

[JimL]

Uncaused existence is not caused by anything, it is truly self existent. Caused existences are another matter.

Of course existence is not caused by anything, it's eternal, but caused existences are not another matter, they are just changes in form of the self same eternal matter.

[Tassman]

Natural law, if it were of the same thing as uncaused existence it is still something else. It would not merely just be uncaused existence it would be a second entity we might call uncaused cause. Existence and cause are two different things.

No it would not be a second entity. In quantum physics natural law may possibly exist eternally without being caused by anything...just as you claim of God.

In which case it would not be uncaused existence, it would only included it. Meaning uncaused existence itself precedes it.

No. See above.

Yeah, but the true God is not a fictional entity.

ALL gods are fictional entities. The idea of gods is a human construct; they do not have an independent reality.

Yeah, you are denying God is God.

And you know God is God because God told you so, right?

[shunyadragon]

Even so, what you believe enters in.

No, what I believe is not based on weak manipulative apologetic arguments that have no object evidence support.

Christians know God because it is God who makes Himself kown to them.

It so happens there is no logic nor wisdom nor understanding against there being uncaused existence. And this the identity of the self existent God.

There is no logic nor wisdom for nor against there being an uncaused cause of existence that would be convincing whether it is Natural nor Divine. It is simple based on 'faith.'

This is a statement of 'faith' to support 'Creation ex nihilo' and has no other basis beyond the belief it is 'so,'

[37818]

No, what I believe is not based on weak manipulative apologetic arguments that have no object evidence support.

You have no foundational truth that you acknowledge. If you do, what is it?

There is no logic nor wisdom for nor against there being an uncaused cause of existence that would be convincing whether it is Natural nor Divine. It is simple based on 'faith.'

A cause is contingent on existence. And no one knows anything unless one believes a thing.

This is a statement of 'faith' to support 'Creation ex nihilo' and has no other basis beyond the belief it is 'so,'

So you profess to believe is that case.

[37818]

Of course existence is not caused by anything, it's eternal, but caused existences are not another matter, they are just changes in form of the self same eternal matter.

There is caused existence.

[37818]

No it would not be a second entity. In quantum physics natural law may possibly exist eternally without being caused by anything...just as you claim of God.

What you are calling quantum excludes it from being uncaused existence proper. Make a logical argument otherwise.

ALL gods are fictional entities. The idea of gods is a human construct; they do not have an independent reality.

And this alleged non existent entity actually revels Himself to Christians? Wow.

And you know God is God because God told you so, right?

Given the Bible is the written word from God given through men. And you have what evidence that it is not?

[shunyadragon]

You have no foundational truth that you acknowledge. If you do, what is it?

My foundational knowledge of my 'belief' in God is the belief in a universal compassionate God for all people, cultures and societies in the history of the world. I consider any single ancient religion ground in one culture and time like Christianity, Judaism and Islam is illogical and not rational at a fundamental level. The scripture of the ancient religions like the Torah, Bible and the Quran have weak historical provenance alone.

Your asking a lot of questions about my beliefs which are not really relevant in this discussion. I just DO NOT ground my beliefs in your weak self serving circular arguments.

A cause is contingent on existence.

. . . and that eternal existence is possibly natural.

And no one knows anything unless one believes a thing.

The closest to 'knowing,' which relative to present knowledge of

So you profess to believe is that case.

I do not remotely share your beliefs nor arguments for God. The only thing we share is a belief in God, and neither of us can 'know' factually that our beliefs are true.

[JimL]

There is caused existence.

There are caused forms of existence, not caused existence. The existing atoms that make up the form of your body will someday recombine, to become another, different, form. The same will happen to our universe some day far in the future. No form is forever, but with respect to their cause, they too are eternal.

[Tassman]

What you are calling quantum excludes it from being uncaused existence proper. Make a logical argument otherwise.

No more so than claiming the same for a deity.

And this alleged non existent entity actually revels Himself to Christians? Wow.

He doesn't reveal himself to Christians any more than any other alleged deity has revealed themselves to the adherents of any of the great religions throughout history. It's all in the mind of believers.

Given the Bible is the written word from God given through men. And you have what evidence that it is not?

the Bible is NOT the written word from God given through men. What evidence do you have, apart from subjective warm fuzzies, that it is?

[37818]

No more so than claiming the same for a deity.

Maybe a finite false deity. But uncaused existence is invisible and everywhere. Not finite. Which is consistent with the identity of the self Existent, which is the meaning of God's Name.

He doesn't reveal himself to Christians any more than any other alleged deity has revealed themselves to the adherents of any of the great religions throughout history. It's all in the mind of believers.

Not so. The self authentication of Holy Scripture, which you refuse to test.

the Bible is NOT the written word from God given through men. What evidence do you have, apart from subjective warm fuzzies, that it is?

The self authentication of Holy Scripture which you refuse to test.

[Tassman]

Maybe a finite false deity. But uncaused existence is invisible and everywhere. Not finite. Which is consistent with the identity of the self Existent, which is the meaning of God's Name.

Indeed and this can apply equally to an infinite universe. "The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once..."

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-qu...verse.html#jCp

Not so. The self authentication of Holy Scripture, which you refuse to test.

So you know that Holy Scripture is "authentic", because the Holy Scripture says it's authentic. A tad circular don't you think?

[37818]

Indeed and this can apply equally to an infinite universe. "The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once..."

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-qu...verse.html#jCp

The universe as everything would be more than uncaused existence, so while it would included uncaused existence, it not be the uncaused existence.

So you know that Holy Scripture is "authentic", because the Holy Scripture says it's authentic. A tad circular don't you think?

Do you even understand what self authentication is? It is not an empty claim. It is something God does to reveal Himself. ". . . know the teaching whether it be of God . . . "

[Tassman]

The universe as everything would be more than uncaused existence, so while it would included uncaused existence, it not be the uncaused existence.

Of course it would...just as you claim for your god.

Do you even understand what self authentication is? It is not an empty claim. It is something God does to reveal Himself. ". . . know the teaching whether it be of God . . . "

This is the "empty claim".