Three irrefutable miracles.

[JimL]

That is the problem. Yes our physical existence is just potentially eternal physical existence and Natural Law is the potentially eternal cause.

If our physical existence is eternal, then I don't think it makes sense to say that it had a "cause."

[37818]

That is the problem. Yes our physical existence is just potentially eternal physical existence and Natural Law is the potentially eternal cause.

What is eternal having no beginning has no cause. Only uncaused existence can be said to be self existent.

[JimL]

What is eternal having no beginning has no cause. Only uncaused existence can be said to be self existent.

Right, only the eternal substance of existing things can be said to be uncaused.

[shunyadragon]

If our physical existence is eternal, then I don't think it makes sense to say that it had a "cause."

The cause of all cause and effect outcomes in our physical existence would be Natural Law, which is possibly simultaneously eternal. I believe I have made this view about the possibility of the eternal in terms of our physical existence and Natural Law. The possible eternal nature of our physical existence, would preclude that there was necessarily a first cause prior to the their existence.

[Rushing Jaws]

1) Creation (the natural revelation).

2) Special revelation of Holy Scripture (the 66 book Bible).

3) Salvation (By God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone).

Mere denial does not refute anything.

There is more to atheism than mere denials.

A

[shunyadragon]

If our physical existence is eternal, then I don't think it makes sense to say that it had a "cause."

The nature of our physical existence and whether there is a cause is not dependent on it making sense to you.

[JimL]

The nature of our physical existence and whether there is a cause is not dependent on it making sense to you.

Irrelevant to the point I made shunya. If the natural world is eternal, then it makes no sense period to say that it has a cause.

[shunyadragon]

Irrelevant to the point I made shunya. If the natural world is eternal, then it makes no sense period to say that it has a cause.

It still remains your reasoning of a very biased fallible human being.

[shunyadragon]

Irrelevant to the point I made shunya. If the natural world is eternal, then it makes no sense period to say that it has a cause.

It still remains your reasoning of a very biased fallible human being.

I thought I would add that you are trying to rationalize and logically define what is impossible something you do not believe in.

[JimL]

I thought I would add that you are trying to rationalize and logically define what is impossible something you do not believe in.

No, that's just the meaning that words have shunya. The eternal, that which has always existed, can't be caused.

[shunyadragon]

No, that's just the meaning that words have shunya. The eternal, that which has always existed, can't be caused.

Nothing in the definition of eternal states that it cannot be caused. God is not defined by human logic.

Again . . .

You are trying to rationalize and logically define what is impossible something you do not believe in.

The concept is that all the worlds of God including our physical existence are eternal with God.

[JimL]

Nothing in the definition of eternal states that it cannot be caused. God is not defined by human logic.

Again . . .

You are trying to rationalize and logically define what is impossible something you do not believe in.

The concept is that all the worlds of God including our physical existence are eternal with God.

Well, I'm game, tell me how that which has existed eternally, i.e. that which has never not existed, was also caused to exist.

[shunyadragon]

Well, I'm game, tell me how that which has existed eternally, i.e. that which has never not existed, was also caused to exist.

I am a fallible human,I cannot 'tell' you anything. I already explained the Baha'i belief. You do not even believe in the possibility of God.

The concept is that all the worlds of God including our physical existence are eternal with God.

[JonathanL]

Well, I'm game, tell me how that which has existed eternally, i.e. that which has never not existed, was also caused to exist.

Imagine that for a certain effect to occur you need a specific set of requirements to exist. As long as these requirements are met it will inevitably lead to this effect. If something exists eternally, that meets all the requirements to produce aforementioned effect, will the effect also be eternal?

[JimL]

Imagine that for a certain effect to occur you need a specific set of requirements to exist. As long as these requirements are met it will inevitably lead to this effect. If something exists eternally, that meets all the requirements to produce aforementioned effect, will the effect also be eternal?

No, the effect would not be eternal also. For instance, if there were an eternally existing god (the requirment) who decided to create the universe 14 billion years ago, then that universe (the effect) would not be eternal with its cause. But, if the cause were of one and the same substance as that of it's effects, then you could argue that the two, the cause and the effect, are forms of one and the same eternal thing.