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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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Three irrefutable miracles.

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    What did you believe first, that a god existed, or that the christian god existed? Most likely the idea that a god existed came secondarily to your belief that the christian god exists. In other words, like most people, your philisophical musings as to whether or not a god could exist came only after the fact of you having already believed in a god. It is sometimes very difficult to overcome ones own biases, particularly when they are disigned to be difficult to overcome.
    The invisible omnipresent existence is the identity of God. Now if you are going to make the argument that God is not God, make it.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      You presume the God of the Hebrews is not.
      And you presume the God of the Hebrews is.

      Science is another word for knowledge, and is typically limited to knowledge about our physical universe.
      There is no good reason to think there is a non-physical universe.

      So are you denying the invisible omnipresent existence?
      There is nothing to deny.

      I am not aware of any concrete evidence of any extraterrestrial alien presence let alone such abductions. My argument was, if they were, they would be. And of course the abductees would know.
      Just as I'm not aware of any concrete evidence of any omnipresent divine presence.

      Evidence requires an existence. God being the invisible omnipresent existence in which we have our existence.
      So you keep asserting without evidence. .
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        The invisible omnipresent existence is the identity of God. Now if you are going to make the argument that God is not God, make it.
        The burden of proof rests with those making the claim to provide evidence for that claim, make it.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          And you presume the God of the Hebrews is.
          The conservative Jewish talk show host and commentator in his Rational Bible commentary on Exodus gives the meaning of God's Name to be "Is."


          There is no good reason to think there is a non-physical universe.
          Spacetime apart from its matter is also non-physical.


          There is nothing to deny.
          What is it you deny as being an atheist?

          Just as I'm not aware of any concrete evidence of any omnipresent divine presence.
          The invisible omnipresent Existence.


          So you keep asserting without evidence. .
          So you do deny there is invisible omnipresent Existence. Which, BTW, is the basis for any evidence.
          Last edited by 37818; 07-16-2018, 08:14 AM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            The burden of proof rests with those making the claim to provide evidence for that claim, make it.
            The self Existent is its own evidence.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              The self Existent is its own evidence.
              Begging the Question so severe it bites you in the butt.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Begging the Question so severe it bites you in the butt.
                Crudely put, but accurate!
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Begging the Question so severe it bites you in the butt.
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Crudely put, but accurate!
                  The fact remains that there must be an uncaused existence. It being invisible and omnipresent. That it happens to be the true identity for God is not my problem.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    The fact remains that there must be an uncaused existence. It being invisible and omnipresent. That it happens to be the true identity for God is not my problem.
                    It remains that Natural Law remains the possible uncaused cause of our physical existence.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      It remains that Natural Law remains the possible uncaused cause of our physical existence.
                      And in order to have an uncaused cause, be it called natural law or not, an uncaused existence must be prior to it in some way - or an uncaused anything else would not exist.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        And in order to have an uncaused cause, be it called natural law or not, an uncaused existence must be prior to it in some way - or an uncaused anything else would not exist.
                        You'd better think that one over again 37818!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          And in order to have an uncaused cause, be it called natural law or not, an uncaused existence must be prior to it in some way - or an uncaused anything else would not exist.
                          The eternal, infinite universe(s) may just as well be the "uncaused existence".
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            And in order to have an uncaused cause, be it called natural law or not, an uncaused existence must be prior to it in some way - or an uncaused anything else would not exist.
                            Tassman is right you need to rethink this. First, your neglecting the possibility that natural lw and our physical existence many possibly be eternal. Second, to avoid 'special pleading' to justify your argument; 'called 'natural law or God, an uncaused existence must prior to it. What would the uncaused existence prior to God in this argument, maybe more Gods?
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Tassman is right you need to rethink this. First, your neglecting the possibility that natural lw and our physical existence many possibly be eternal. Second, to avoid 'special pleading' to justify your argument; 'called 'natural law or God, an uncaused existence must prior to it. What would the uncaused existence prior to God in this argument, maybe more Gods?
                              Explain how natural law precedes existence.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                The eternal, infinite universe(s) may just as well be the "uncaused existence".
                                Uncaused existence is one thing. Universe might be understood include this. But the universe is more. There are two definitions for universe, 1) All created things. 2) Everything. This latter meaning would include the uncaused existence besides everything else.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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