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Three irrefutable miracles.

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Of course it would...just as you claim for your god.
    No. A universe is made up of caused things. Uncaused existence is wholly uncaused. So it is that God is wholly uncaused.


    This is the "empty claim".
    No. You refuse to test the self authentication of Holy Scripture (the Bible).
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      No. A universe is made up of caused things. Uncaused existence is wholly uncaused.
      Not necessarily! Again: "The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once..."

      https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-qu...verse.html#jCp

      So it is that God is wholly uncaused.
      Nonsense! This is just a bald assertion on your part. The scientific model at least has possible data supporting it.

      No. You refuse to test the self authentication of Holy Scripture (the Bible).
      More to the point you fail to recognise that your self authentication of Holy Scripture is based upon your subjective desire to believe.
      Last edited by Tassman; 08-11-2018, 01:35 AM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Not necessarily! Again: "The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once..."

        https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-qu...verse.html#jCp
        Again: In order for there to always be the universe, it would have to be, by definition, everything, which would included uncaused Existence. The universe being everything would also be made up of caused beginnings, too.


        Nonsense! This is just a bald assertion on your part.
        No. God being uncaused Existence would be uncaused.

        The scientific model at least has possible data supporting it.
        None of the scientific models address uncaused existence itself. Spacetime, how we experience existence, has a measured beginning.


        More to the point you fail to recognise that your self authentication of Holy Scripture is based upon your subjective desire to believe.
        So are you claiming I am making this written claim up, ". . . know the teaching whether it be of God . . " among others? It is the claim found in the New Testament that Christians know God. And also writes that there are those who do not know God.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Again: In order for there to always be the universe, it would have to be, by definition, everything, which would included uncaused Existence. The universe being everything would also be made up of caused beginnings, too.
          Yes, an eternal physical existence would be made up of many, many infinite uncaused beginnings.

          No. God being uncaused Existence would be uncaused.
          An eternal physical existence could possibly eternally exist with eternal natural laws, or just one eternal natural law

          None of the scientific models address uncaused existence itself. Spacetime, how we experience existence, has a measured beginning.
          There is not a specific measured beginning supported by the objective verifiable evidence of science.


          So are you claiming I am making this written claim up, ". . . know the teaching whether it be of God . . " among others? It is the claim found in the New Testament that Christians know God. And also writes that there are those who do not know God. [/QUOTE]
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Again: In order for there to always be the universe, it would have to be, by definition, everything, which would included uncaused Existence. The universe being everything would also be made up of caused beginnings, too.


            No. God being uncaused Existence would be uncaused.

            None of the scientific models address uncaused existence itself. Spacetime, how we experience existence, has a measured beginning.
            If the universe is the set of all existing entities...we have no good reason to think otherwise...a causal entity such as a deity, must be part of the universe. An entity cannot be its own cause, so it cannot have created the universe. All indications are that the universe just "is".

            So are you claiming I am making this written claim up, ". . . know the teaching whether it be of God . . " among others? It is the claim found in the New Testament that Christians know God. And also writes that there are those who do not know God.
            So what! Biblical folk-lore is not authoritative.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              If the universe is the set of all existing entities...we have no good reason to think otherwise...a causal entity such as a deity, must be part of the universe.
              This would be true if said deity was uncaused.

              An entity cannot be its own cause, so it cannot have created the universe.
              True, there cannot be any kind of self caused entity. But uncaused existence is in fact self existent and not any way self caused, being uncaused. So an uncaused cause would also have to be one and the same in some way with uncaused existence to be uncaused. A cause is something other than its uncaused existence. The created universe has a cause.

              All indications are that the universe just "is".
              Anything in evidence "is." Whether it be a purely created universe or always was with caused components. In either case an uncaused existence precedes the universe as a whole.


              So what! Biblical folk-lore is not authoritative.
              As folk-lore it would not be, but as being God given it would be authoritative. Self authentication is still in evidence as a claim in its texts, which you refuse to test.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                This would be true if said deity was uncaused.
                This would be true if our physical existence and Natural Law uncaused and eternal.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  This would be true if said deity was uncaused.
                  It remains true that Natural Law may be uncaused and eternal. Why add a deity into the equation, it's not parsimonious.

                  True, there cannot be any kind of self caused entity. But uncaused existence is in fact self existent and not any way self caused, being uncaused. So an uncaused cause would also have to be one and the same in some way with uncaused existence to be uncaused. A cause is something other than its uncaused existence. The created universe has a cause.
                  Who created god?

                  Anything in evidence "is." Whether it be a purely created universe or always was with caused components. In either case an uncaused existence precedes the universe as a whole.
                  Not if the universe is itself uncaused and eternal. All you've done it move the argument back a step.

                  As folk-lore it would not be, but as being God given it would be authoritative.
                  Why assume a god?

                  Self authentication is still in evidence as a claim in its texts, which you refuse to test.
                  There is no good reason to suppose that the claims of texts written by men is authoritative, nor to think they were inspired by a deity.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    This would be true if our physical existence and Natural Law uncaused and eternal.
                    But our physical universe is not uncaused. And Natural Law being uncaused would be contingent on uncaused existence to be so.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      It remains true that Natural Law may be uncaused and eternal.
                      To be so it would be contingent on uncaused exisence.

                      Why add a deity into the equation, it's not parsimonious.
                      Uncaused existence possesses everything.


                      Who created god?
                      Non sequitur.


                      Not if the universe is itself uncaused and eternal. All you've done it move the argument back a step.
                      No. Because such a universe would need uncaused existence to be such. Uncaused existence is necessary in order for anything to be uncaused.



                      Why assume a god?
                      God is known. You do not know God.


                      There is no good reason to suppose that the claims of texts written by men is authoritative, nor to think they were inspired by a deity.
                      Your excuse for not testing.
                      Last edited by 37818; 08-14-2018, 02:21 PM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        But our physical universe is not uncaused. And Natural Law being uncaused would be contingent on uncaused existence to be so.
                        IF they were co-eternal they would in and of themselves be not be caused by anything outside our physical existence. The eternal Natural Law would be the cause of outcomes of ALL cause and effect events in our physical existence.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          IF they were co-eternal they would in and of themselves be not be caused by anything outside our physical existence. The eternal Natural Law would be the cause of outcomes of ALL cause and effect events in our physical existence.
                          ...and that's all that need be said. The rest are 37818 word-games
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            IF they were co-eternal they would in and of themselves be not be caused by anything outside our physical existence.
                            There is no evidence that our physical existence is eternal
                            The eternal Natural Law would be the cause of outcomes of ALL cause and effect events in our physical existence.
                            In order for Natural Law as you call it to be eternal it needs to be contingent on uncaused existence.

                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            ...and that's all that need be said. The rest are 37818 word-games
                            What is my word game?

                            Let us define words, and what is meant by those words.
                            Uncaused has no cause. And would have no beginning, as such would be eternal.
                            Existence is what anything must be contingent on to be real.
                            Cause has its effects.
                            Natural meaning what?
                            Law: what governs temporal things.
                            Any other term?
                            Last edited by 37818; 08-15-2018, 02:25 PM.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              What is my word game?
                              You define words idiosyncratically so as to make the definitions entail your preferred conclusion. That is your game.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post


                                What is my word game?
                                It is making words mean what you want them to mean in order to support your religious agenda. It's essentially dishonest, but I guess if that what it takes...
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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