Three irrefutable miracles.

[shunyadragon]

There is no evidence that our physical existence is eternalIn order for Natural Law as you call it to be eternal it needs to be contingent on uncaused existence.

I never said there was evidence for our physical existence nor natural being eternal. Despite your assertions there is no evidence that they are finite. I have repeatedly stated that it is a possibility that natural law and our physical existence are eternal.

[37818]

I never said there was evidence for our physical existence nor natural being eternal. Despite your assertions there is no evidence that they are finite. I have repeatedly stated that it is a possibility that natural law and our physical existence are eternal.

Fine. That still requires an uncaused existence to which they would be contingent in order for them to be eternal.

[shunyadragon]

Fine. That still requires an uncaused existence to which they would be contingent in order for them to be eternal.

If they were eternal they may not necessarily be contingent on anything else. They may possibly simply exist eternally.

[37818]

If they were eternal they may not necessarily be contingent on anything else. They may possibly simply exist eternally.

Ok, they do not need to exist then, is that what you are arguing? Uncaused existence is a single starting point, whether uncaused existence be god or not. It is only uncaused existence which self exists and anything else is contingent upon to exist.

[Tassman]

Ok, they do not need to exist then, is that what you are arguing? Uncaused existence is a single starting point, whether uncaused existence be god or not. It is only uncaused existence which self exists and anything else is contingent upon to exist.

You are entirely missing the point. It is just as possible to claim that natural law and material existence are eternal as it is to claim the existence of an eternally existing god. In fact, the former has more evidence supporting it than the latter.

[shunyadragon]

Ok, they do not need to exist then, is that what you are arguing? Uncaused existence is a single starting point, whether uncaused existence be god or not. It is only uncaused existence which self exists and anything else is contingent upon to exist.

Perfect explanation of the possible eternal Quantum World and the eternal natural law that determines the outcome of all cause and effect relationships, which resulted in our universe and all possible universes.

[37818]

Perfect explanation of the possible eternal Quantum World and the eternal natural law that determines the outcome of all cause and effect relationships, which resulted in our universe and all possible universes.

A quantum world is temporal or it would not be quantum. Cause and effect is temporal.

[37818]

You are entirely missing the point. It is just as possible to claim that natural law and material existence are eternal as it is to claim the existence of an eternally existing god. In fact, the former has more evidence supporting it than the latter.

Ok, explain the possibility. Uncaused existence is uncaused. Any universes which has causes and effects is other than uncaused.

[Tassman]

Ok, explain the possibility. Uncaused existence is uncaused. Any universes which has causes and effects is other than uncaused.

Not necessarily the greater cosmos within which the universes that have causes and effects exist. Just as your posited divinely created universe has causes and effects

[37818]

Not necessarily the greater cosmos within which the universes that have causes and effects exist. Just as your posited divinely created universe has causes and effects

No. What is uncaused is not caused nor is it an effect . All causes are finite and temporal. And uncaused cause would be unique. Having not been caused, but yet being the reason for causes, whether there was never any first cause or there was one unique first cause from it.

Such an uncaused cause would still be contingent on there being an uncaused existence, which is different than a cause.

[Tassman]

No. What is uncaused is not caused nor is it an effect . All causes are finite and temporal. And uncaused cause would be unique. Having not been caused, but yet being the reason for causes, whether there was never any first cause or there was one unique first cause from it.

Such an uncaused cause would still be contingent on there being an uncaused existence, which is different than a cause.

Enough! You are clearly determined to make words mean what you want them to mean so as to establish the existence of your deity.

[37818]

Enough! You are clearly determined to make words mean what you want them to mean so as to establish the existence of your deity.

Uncaused existence. Different things which are in existence are not the existence. Only uncaused existence is truly self existent.

Uncaused reality. Different things which are in reality are not the reality. Only uncaused reality is of itself.

What word do you want me to use to describe this?

[Tassman]

Uncaused existence. Different things which are in existence are not the existence. Only uncaused existence is truly self existent.

Uncaused reality. Different things which are in reality are not the reality. Only uncaused reality is of itself.

What word do you want me to use to describe this?

You are entirely missing the point. It is just as possible to claim that natural law and material existence are an eternal uncaused existence as it is to claim that god is an eternal uncaused existence. In fact the former has evidence supporting whereas the latter doesn’t, it is merely a faith belief.

[37818]

You are entirely missing the point. It is just as possible to claim that natural law and material existence are an eternal uncaused existence as it is to claim that god is an eternal uncaused existence. In fact the former has evidence supporting whereas the latter doesn’t, it is merely a faith belief.

Natural law to have always existed, requires there to be uncaused existence. As to the "god" question, unless that "god" is the uncaused existence, that "god" is no god. Are you incapable of understanding the difference?

[Tassman]

Natural law to have always existed, requires there to be uncaused existence. As to the "god" question, unless that "god" is the uncaused existence, that "god" is no god. Are you incapable of understanding the difference?

There are no gods. Natural law is the eternal, infinite, uncaused existence.