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Three irrefutable miracles.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Sola scriptura
    Sola fide
    Sola gratia
    Solus Christus
    Soli Deo gloria

    But you knew that.
    Actually, I had to look it up - never had a strong grounding in Reformation apologetics, or Reformed theology. I remembered we had a member on Tweb long, long ago who went by "5solas".
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Actually, I had to look it up - never had a strong grounding in Reformation apologetics, or Reformed theology. I remembered we had a member on Tweb long, long ago who went by "5solas".
      Ah. I thought, for some reason, you were big on the historicity of this. I only knew it because we shared our building with a Lutheran congregation for 5 years.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        1) Creation (the natural revelation).

        2) Special revelation of Holy Scripture (the 66 book Bible).

        3) Salvation (By God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone).

        Mere denial does not refute anything.
        There are alternative explanations for the "miracles" you've listed, therefore there are possible refutations.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          What is the objective basis behind the assertions that would make them more than mere assertions.
          The universe being the evidence of creation.

          That there is actually a 66 book Bible which is cited to be written word of God.

          And there are Christians who know God through faith in His Christ who died for sins of mankind and rose from the dead to justify that faith.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            There are alternative explanations for the "miracles" you've listed, therefore there are possible refutations.
            Well give them.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              The first and second 'solas' are mutually exclusive (and aren't you missing a couple? I thought there were 5, not 3).
              Salvation being according to God's written word alone, by God's grace alone, through faith alone in God's Christ alone, for God's glory alone.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Those three miracles are not mere assertions.
                I have seen no evidence for their occurrence except assertions that they occurred.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Well give them.
                  The universe being the evidence of creation.
                  Saying that god-did-it is not an explanation. The universe may itself be eternal and self-generating. You don’t know it’s not.

                  That there is actually a 66 book Bible which is cited to be written word of God.
                  Claiming these books to be the “written word of God” is not substantiated by any evidence. This is a faith-belief. The more obvious explanation is that they were written by men with an agenda.

                  And there are Christians who know God through faith in His Christ who died for sins of mankind and rose from the dead to justify that faith
                  So they say. I say they are deluded. Dying and rising god-men sounds more like mythology to me.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    The universe may itself be eternal and self-generating.
                    This is so cute.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                      I have seen no evidence for their occurrence except assertions that they occurred.
                      So the universe is not in evidence?

                      The 66 book Bible's claims are not in evidence?

                      That there are professing Christians who profess to know God are not in evidence?

                      What definitively refutes the universe from being evidence of creation?
                      What definitively refutes the 66 book Bible from being God's written word?
                      What definitively shows that all Christians knowing God are delusional?
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Saying that god-did-it is not an explanation. The universe may itself be eternal and self-generating. You don’t know it’s not.
                        An number of things here. You deny God is God. There is only evidence that the known universe has an apparent beginning. And Christians know God.


                        Claiming these books to be the “written word of God” is not substantiated by any evidence. This is a faith-belief. The more obvious explanation is that they were written by men with an agenda.
                        A number of things with this. For one, there is no definitive evidence that the 66 book Bible is not what it says to be. Everyone has some kind of faith-belief as you are calling it. Your atheism is a faith-belief in what you call the lack of substantiated evidence. [Again, you deny God is God.] And I am not aware that any who affirms the 66 book Bible to be the written word of God also denies that the men used to write it had some kind of an agenda.



                        So they say. I say they are deluded. Dying and rising god-men sounds more like mythology to me.
                        How do we prove their delusion?
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          This is so cute.
                          Not as "cute" as believing, in this day and age, that it was all done by an invisible sky-god.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            This has become your essence.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              An number of things here. You deny God is God.
                              One cannot “deny” what cannot be shown to exist.

                              There is only evidence that the known universe has an apparent beginning.
                              The nature of the universe(s) is not as yet fully understood. Science, unlike religion, is a work in progress.

                              And Christians know God.
                              So they believe. I believe they are wrong.

                              A number of things with this. For one, there is no definitive evidence that the 66 book Bible is not what it says to be.
                              There is a great deal of evidence that it was composed by men with an agenda to sell Jesus and that the final canon was decided over numerous synods (and a great deal of vitriol), over several centuries. All the evidence points to it being a totally human construct.

                              Everyone has some kind of faith-belief as you are calling it. Your atheism is a faith-belief in what you call the lack of substantiated evidence. [Again, you deny God is God.] And I am not aware that any who affirms the 66 book Bible to be the written word of God also denies that the men used to write it had some kind of an agenda.
                              It is more convincing for beliefs to be based upon substantive evidence rather than wish-fulfilment.

                              How do we prove their delusion?
                              By demonstrating that their delusions are not supported by substantive evidence...’delusions’ are idiosyncratic beliefs that are firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Whether any fact F is evidence for a proposition P depends on the probability that F could obtain if P were false. That probability is not determined by the mere assertion that F is evidence for P.

                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                So the universe is not in evidence?
                                Only on the assumption that the universe is a miracle.

                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                The 66 book Bible's claims are not in evidence?
                                Any book is evidence of something that its writer or writers were thinking. There is nothing miraculous about the thinking of anybody who might have involved in producing the Bible.

                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                That there are professing Christians who profess to know God are not in evidence?
                                The claim of any human being to know any god is not inconsistent with that god's nonexistence.

                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                What definitively refutes the 66 book Bible from being God's written word?
                                I don't need a definitive refutation. I'm not obliged to believe it just because you say so.

                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                What definitively shows that all Christians knowing God are delusional?
                                I'm not interesting in making any psychiatric diagnoses. I believe that Christians who say they know God are mistaken. If you want me to think that isn't possible, it's up to you to definitively show me that you cannot be mistaken.

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