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Thread: Three irrefutable miracles.

  1. #221
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, that's just the meaning that words have shunya. The eternal, that which has always existed, can't be caused.
    Nothing in the definition of eternal states that it cannot be caused. God is not defined by human logic.

    Again . . .

    You are trying to rationalize and logically define what is impossible something you do not believe in.

    The concept is that all the worlds of God including our physical existence are eternal with God.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #222
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Nothing in the definition of eternal states that it cannot be caused. God is not defined by human logic.

    Again . . .

    You are trying to rationalize and logically define what is impossible something you do not believe in.

    The concept is that all the worlds of God including our physical existence are eternal with God.
    Well, I'm game, tell me how that which has existed eternally, i.e. that which has never not existed, was also caused to exist.

  3. #223
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, I'm game, tell me how that which has existed eternally, i.e. that which has never not existed, was also caused to exist.
    I am a fallible human,I cannot 'tell' you anything. I already explained the Baha'i belief. You do not even believe in the possibility of God.

    The concept is that all the worlds of God including our physical existence are eternal with God.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #224
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, I'm game, tell me how that which has existed eternally, i.e. that which has never not existed, was also caused to exist.
    Imagine that for a certain effect to occur you need a specific set of requirements to exist. As long as these requirements are met it will inevitably lead to this effect. If something exists eternally, that meets all the requirements to produce aforementioned effect, will the effect also be eternal?

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  6. #225
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Imagine that for a certain effect to occur you need a specific set of requirements to exist. As long as these requirements are met it will inevitably lead to this effect. If something exists eternally, that meets all the requirements to produce aforementioned effect, will the effect also be eternal?
    No, the effect would not be eternal also. For instance, if there were an eternally existing god (the requirment) who decided to create the universe 14 billion years ago, then that universe (the effect) would not be eternal with its cause. But, if the cause were of one and the same substance as that of it's effects, then you could argue that the two, the cause and the effect, are forms of one and the same eternal thing.

  7. #226
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I am a fallible human,I cannot 'tell' you anything. I already explained the Baha'i belief. You do not even believe in the possibility of God.

    The concept is that all the worlds of God including our physical existence are eternal with God.
    Then the physical existence would not be caused.

  8. #227
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, the effect would not be eternal also. For instance, if there were an eternally existing god (the requirment) who decided to create the universe 14 billion years ago, then that universe (the effect) would not be eternal with its cause.
    Your counter-example doesn't work, because an eternally existing god is not by itself a sufficient cause for the universe to exist, so by definition it doesn't meet all the requirements to produce the effect (the universe). In order for all of the requirements to be met the decision and act of creating the universe also need to be eternal.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    But, if the cause were of one and the same substance as that of it's effects, then you could argue that the two, the cause and the effect, are forms of one and the same eternal thing.
    I see no reason why the cause and effect need to be of the same substance in order for the effect to be eternal. But you do realize that you're pretty much admitting here that something that exists eternally can be the effect of something else, even if you're arbitrarily limiting it to only effects that are of the same nature and substance as their causes, right?

  9. #228
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Then the physical existence would not be caused.
    That is your Ontological Naturalist assertion based on your belief that God does not exist.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #229
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    That is your Ontological Naturalist assertion based on your belief that God does not exist.
    No, that has nothing to do with it shunya, it's an assertion based on logic, not on my stance on gods existence.

  11. #230
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Your counter-example doesn't work, because an eternally existing god is not by itself a sufficient cause for the universe to exist, so by definition it doesn't meet all the requirements to produce the effect (the universe). In order for all of the requirements to be met the decision and act of creating the universe also need to be eternal.
    The cause and the ability of the cause is all that need exist, unless you want to argue that the actions of the cause need be eternally determined. Sacrilege!


    I see no reason why the cause and effect need to be of the same substance in order for the effect to be eternal. But you do realize that you're pretty much admitting here that something that exists eternally can be the effect of something else, even if you're arbitrarily limiting it to only effects that are of the same nature and substance as their causes, right?
    Because if the effect is not of the same substance as its creator, if it was created ipso facto out of nothing, then it obviously is not eternal, it obviously hasn't never not existed. But of course, the infinite and eternal is the cause of the finite and temporal, but they are also just differing forms of one in the same thing. The finite and temporal is such with respect to itself, but it is eternal with respect to it's cause. It's similar to the way our own material world works. All things come into being, endure for a certain period of time, and then disappear. But the stuff of which they are made doesn't disappear, it is taken up into another form. Though Jesus died long ago, the atoms that made up his body are still here, you might even be breathing some of them in right now.

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