Jesus on accepting and rejecting - Extreme Calvinism Defeated

[OneFollowingHim]

Since this post didn't get any response in "The Willingness of God" thread, I'm starting thread specifically on this topic.

I'm wonderng if there's a good Calvinist response to Jesus words with regards to whether or not man has a choice to do any rejecting or accepting? (Emphasis added)

John 12:48
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
(NIV)

[Reader]

OneFollowingHim:

Since this post didn't get any response in "The Willingness of God" thread, I'm starting thread specifically on this topic.

I'm wonderng if there's a good Calvinist response to Jesus words with regards to whether or not man has a choice to do any rejecting or accepting? (Emphasis added)

All natural men reject the words of Christ, and will be judged accordingly. They consider the things of God to be foolishness, because they have not been born again by the Spirit of God, nor gifted with faith, to understand spiritual things.

"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit . . .We have received . . the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. . .But the natural man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2:10-14

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see (comprehend or believe) the kingdom of God." John 3:3

Regeneration must occur and the Holy Spirit must abide before a sinner can hear the gospel message and believe. Regeneration must occur and the Holy Spirit must abide before a sinner will choose to repent from his sins and submit his will to God's will.

[Ian Potts]

One text is quoted to justify the thread having the title 'Extreme Calvinism Defeated'.....?

Hi ho.

[Solly]

Proof texting: it's alright if you aren't Calvinist.

Notice how he misses the immediate context:

Scripture Verse:

Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[Ian Potts]

What about a new thread called "Arminianism Utterly Exploded, as shown by John 1:13."

Somehow I don't think everyone would agree....

[Sir Yap Alot]

The Bible does make a reference to the elect. However Calvinists falsely assume they have no control over this election.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If God is the one doing the electing, and we have no control over our election as Calvinists assert. Then why does Peter command us to give diligence in order to make our election sure.

It seems Peter does not subscribe to the "Calvinists theology". Peter is saying that our election is dependent upon our diligence, that our election is not sure unless we are diligent.

[OneFollowingHim]

Proof texting: it's alright if you aren't Calvinist.

Notice how he misses the immediate context:

Scripture Verse:

Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

No, Solly, he does not miss the immediate context. I've held from the beginning of my discussion with Reader going back to last month that it is clear that the Father draws the believer, but it is not clear that He does not draw the unbeliever.

The point is that Jesus gave the choice to the individual to accept or reject. Otherwise He would not have said such a thing as to talk about the ones who reject and do not accept if there is no possible chance for them to make any choice in the matter.

Why look at just the "Calvinist" portion of the verse? Let's look at more of the passage in John 12, and see what it says without missing the immediate context. 

John 12:27-32
27 "Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.
28 Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again."
29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine.
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
(NIV)

All will be drawn, but not all will believe. And when they reject what they have heard, they are further driven from God, their eyes are blinded. Why? Because they refuse to believe, not because God has withheld His grace from them. Quite the contrary.

Let’s get some more context.

John 12:33-35
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
34 The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"
35 Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
(NIV)

“Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you”. What an odd thing to say to a dead man who has no choice in the matter (as the extreme Calvinists would say about the condition of the unbeliever).

Let’s look at some more context.

John 12:36
36 Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.
(NIV)

Hmmmm. “Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.”

Put?

Your trust?

This seems like a strange thing to say to someone who is “dead” (again, the extreme Calvinist view) and without the slightest capability to do any “putting” or any “trusting”.

You see what’s going on here? It’s the rejection of the word by the individual unbeliever that further drives him or her away from God. There is a progression going on here within the unbeliever who continues to reject what he has heard. We will see what the outcome is in just a moment. He is becoming more and more blind.

John 12:37
37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.
(NIV)

Is Jesus wasting His time doing things to help the unbeliever believe? Hardly. He is in fact drawing that individual unbeliever to Himself. But if that drawing is rejected or ignored, something begins to happen to the unbeliever. He is hardening his own heart. The heart Jesus is drawing to Himself.

Let’s look at a little more context.

John 12:38-40
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-- and I would heal them."
(NIV)

He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts. This is very interesting. The extreme Calvinist view is that they are already blind and already dead. So what the heck is this continuous action of blinding and deadening?

I’ll tell you what it is. It is nothing less than the unbeliever rejecting the very word that can save him!

Jesus is drawing and what is the unbeliever doing? The unbeliever is moving farther and farther away. So far that he is now blind and his heart is dead.

John 12:41
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
(NIV)

Isaiah is not speaking about Jesus because people are without hope. He is speaking about Him because there is hope for those who put their trust in Jesus.

Let’s look at some more context.

John 12:42-43
42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
(NIV)

Some believe. Are they specially gifted by God? You bet they are. But not the way the extreme Calvinists think. They are simply the ones who accept Jesus’ words. The very same words available to all. The extreme Calvinist thinks believers have something from God that unbelievers don’t have. Horsepucky!

Let’s look at some more context.

John 12:44-46
44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.
46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
(NIV)

No one who believes in Jesus should stay in darkness. That is crystal clear.

John 12:47-48
47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
(NIV)

Jesus came to save the world. That’s very clear. Does He really mean that only select ones? Hardly.

He means anyone who hears his words. That means everyone, every man, woman and child. What happens if you reject and do not accept? (Jesus’ words, not mine) The word which He spoke will condemn him at the last day.

John 12:49-50
49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
(NIV)

Jesus knew what He came to do. He came with a command. A command that leads to eternal life. Does that command only lead some as the extreme Calvinist thinks? NO! It is the same command available to all. Let’s look at some “alls” from the scripture.

Luke 2:10
10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
(NIV)

Luke 2:30-32
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."
(NIV)

Luke 3:6
6 And all mankind will see God's salvation.'"
(NIV)

John 1:9
9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
(NIV)

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
(NIV)

Yes. All have salvation revealed to him or her. And all have equal opportunity to accept or reject that salvation. The extreme Calvinist view is defeated.

[rhutchin]

OneFollowingHim

I'm wonderng if there's a good Calvinist response to Jesus words with regards to whether or not man has a choice to do any rejecting or accepting? (Emphasis added)

John 12:48
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. (NIV)

All people start out in the same position. We have all sinned and we are all destined for hell.

In this verse, Jesus plainly says that He is the means to escape hell. He is the door through which one must pass to be saved. To reject Christ and refuse to accept what He says is to refuse to go through that dooor and to choose to stay in our natural condition. To accept His words is to go through that door and to accept the salvation available through Christ.

The issue with Calvinism is not whether there is a choice (because it is clear to Calvinists that there is a choice) but what do people choose to do. The Calvinist says that people choose, of their own will, to reject Christ and to search for another door more compatible with their wants and desires.

[Reader]

All people start out in the same position. We have all sinned and we are all destined for hell.

This is correct. This is basis for the doctrine of "Total Depravity."

In this verse, Jesus plainly says that He is the means to escape hell. He is the door through which one must pass to be saved. To reject Christ and refuse to accept what He says is to refuse to go through that dooor and to choose to stay in our natural condition. To accept His words is to go through that door and to accept the salvation available through Christ.

This is correct. The debate between Calvinist and Arminian, is when and how do sinners choose to believe in Christ and enter the "door?"

Arminians say sinners choose to believe while remaining in their sins, and because they believe, God cleanses them from sin and forgives their sins. Supposedly sinners "choose" Christ from their old natures.

Calvinists say sinners cannot choose to believe until they are spiritually born again from above, and gifted with faith in Christ's propitiation and forgiveness. Sinners "choose" Christ from a new, spiritual nature.

The issue with Calvinism is not whether there is a choice (because it is clear to Calvinists that there is a choice) but what do people choose to do. The Calvinist says that people choose, of their own will, to reject Christ and to search for another door more compatible with their wants and desires.

Calvinists teach that the will of all unsaved sinners is corrupted, sinful, and held enslaved to serve only sin, death, and the devil. Until and unless the soul of the sinner is redeemed by Jesus Christ, and called to life by His Holy Spirit, no man can "choose" to be saved. It is impossible for spiritually dead persons to make a spiritual choice.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." Ephesians 2:4&5

Christians are saved by God's grace, not by making a willful decision. Willful decisions to believe in Christ, repent of sins, and walk a new life according to the will and Spirit of God come after being spiritually resurrected.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such, the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev. 20:6

This first resurrection is the spiritual resurrection of sinners to new life in Christ. The first resurrection is regeneration and conversion of the sinful soul. The first resurrection frees Christian from the penalty of sin; the sentence of death, and works in him everlasting LIFE.

God is the God of the LIVING. He is the God of all souls made spiritually ALIVE by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Without experiencing this spiritual rebirth, the sinner remains dead in his sins, and cannot "choose" to resurrect himself and walk through the "door" to the kingdom of heaven. Dead men can't walk. Dead men can't make righteous choices. Dead men can't love God. Dead men can't escape sin, death, or the devil. Jesus Christ is the only one who can give spiritually dead sinners victory over death and raise them to everlasting LIFE!

Resurrection power resides in Him alone.

[OneFollowingHim]

This is correct. This is basis for the doctrine of "Total Depravity."

This is correct. The debate between Calvinist and Arminian, is when and how do sinners choose to believe in Christ and enter the "door?".

The peoblem I have with Calvinism is the claim that God selectively gifts certian individuals unto salvation. However there are plenty of places in scripture where God shows His salvation to all and truly wants all to believe and be saved.

Arminians say sinners choose to believe while remaining in their sins, and because they believe, God cleanses them from sin and forgives their sins. Supposedly sinners "choose" Christ from their old natures.

Yes, sinners choose to accept when shown what the truth is and not until.

Calvinists say sinners cannot choose to believe until they are spiritually born again from above, and gifted with faith in Christ's propitiation and forgiveness. Sinners "choose" Christ from a new, spiritual nature.

The problem with the extreme Calvinist position is that only those that God changes can believe and that they in fact always believe. This is in direct contradiction with many scriptural teachings that say that God shows His light to everyone so that they know what the outcome of their decision is.

Calvinists teach that the will of all unsaved sinners is corrupted, sinful, and held enslaved to serve only sin, death, and the devil. Until and unless the soul of the sinner is redeemed by Jesus Christ, and called to life by His Holy Spirit, no man can "choose" to be saved. It is impossible for spiritually dead persons to make a spiritual choice.

I responded to this in my last post, but it was of cousre ignored. Look at John 12:40. this is a verse you quoted, Reader, to prove that one cannot believe until changed by God.

John 12:40
40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-- and I would heal them."
(NIV)

Why were their eyes blinded and their hearts deadened if they are as you say already "spiritually dead"? This seems very odd to me if things are as you say.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

So what is this really saying? There is nothing wrong with the Arminian view that one cannot see the kindom of God unless he is born again. That can certainly happen after one accepts the message. He chooses after he is drawn, is born again and can now see the Kingdom of God.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." Ephesians 2:4&5

So what's the problem? God made a dead man alive. Whether that happens as you say before one chooses or after one chooses God still made us alive.

Stephen said this,

Acts 7:51
51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
(NIV)

What is this resisting business? Could he possibly mean that the Holy Spirit is calling on them to willingly change?

Christians are saved by God's grace, not by making a willful decision. Willful decisions to believe in Christ, repent of sins, and walk a new life according to the will and Spirit of God come after being spiritually resurrected.

You might want to think twice about being extremely dogmatic.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such, the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev. 20:6

This first resurrection is the spiritual resurrection of sinners to new life in Christ. The first resurrection is regeneration and conversion of the sinful soul. The first resurrection frees Christian from the penalty of sin; the sentence of death, and works in him everlasting LIFE.

God is the God of the LIVING. He is the God of all souls made spiritually ALIVE by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Without experiencing this spiritual rebirth, the sinner remains dead in his sins, and cannot "choose" to resurrect himself and walk through the "door" to the kingdom of heaven. Dead men can't walk. Dead men can't make righteous choices. Dead men can't love God. Dead men can't escape sin, death, or the devil. Jesus Christ is the only one who can give spiritually dead sinners victory over death and raise them to everlasting LIFE!

Resurrection power resides in Him alone.

None of this means that one is specially gifted by God to receive salvation before he makes a choice.

[OneFollowingHim]

All people start out in the same position. We have all sinned and we are all destined for hell.

In this verse, Jesus plainly says that He is the means to escape hell. He is the door through which one must pass to be saved. To reject Christ and refuse to accept what He says is to refuse to go through that dooor and to choose to stay in our natural condition. To accept His words is to go through that door and to accept the salvation available through Christ.

The issue with Calvinism is not whether there is a choice (because it is clear to Calvinists that there is a choice) but what do people choose to do. The Calvinist says that people choose, of their own will, to reject Christ and to search for another door more compatible with their wants and desires.

Hi rhutchin:

Your views certainly are not the extreme ones that create problems with interpretation. I think only God can save, but that does not mean that I think He saves certain individuals by giving those select few the thing they need to believe and be saved. That is not what scripture teaches. There is a balanced view that says God's sovereignty and man's free will are both at play at the same time.

OneFollowingHim

[Reader]

The problem with the extreme Calvinist position is that only those that God changes can believe and that they in fact always believe. This is in direct contradiction with many scriptural teachings that say that God shows His light to everyone so that they know what the outcome of their decision is.

God shines the light of truth on all men through the creational witness, and to many through exposure to the Gospel message. Those who do not believe in the name of Jesus Christ, are already condemned, and the Gospel acts as their Judge.

I responded to this in my last post, but it was of cousre ignored. Look at John 12:40. this is a verse you quoted, Reader, to prove that one cannot believe until changed by God.

John 12:40
40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-- and I would heal them."
(NIV)

Why were their eyes blinded and their hearts deadened if they are as you say already "spiritually dead"? This seems very odd to me if things are as you say.

The prime example is Pharoah, and God gives His own explanation of why He further hardened Pharoah's hard heart:

"For this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Romans 9:17 (Exodus 9:16)

There is nothing wrong with the Arminian view that one cannot see the kindom of God unless he is born again. That can certainly happen after one accepts the message. He chooses after he is drawn, is born again and can now see the Kingdom of God.

You must not realize that you have just stated the Calvinistic view.

So what's the problem? God made a dead man alive. Whether that happens as you say before one chooses or after one chooses God still made us alive.

The problem is, dead men cannot choose to live. Dead men can only be dead. Same thing spiritually. Spiritually dead men cannot choose to live spiritually. They must first receive the Spirit of God before they can walk towards God.

Stephen said this,

Acts 7:51
51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
(NIV)

What is this resisting business? Could he possibly mean that the Holy Spirit is calling on them to willingly change?

Stephen describes the unsaved condition of totally depraved men, who by nature, always resist God. Unsaved, totally depraved men are cursed with enmity against God and the things of God. Perhaps you are confusing sinners' ability to resist the things of God, with their inability to resist God's grace?

You might want to think twice about being extremely dogmatic.

O.K. (Once, twice, . . .) Nope. Still convinced!

None of this means that one is specially gifted by God to receive salvation before he makes a choice.

Then you are making salvation your reward for something that you did.

That is not grace at all. That is belief that one can earn salvation by human actions and works. That is not faith at all. That is depending upon yourself, and your own decisions, and not on the will of God.

[OneFollowingHim]

Reader, you're silly.

God shines the light of truth on all men through the creational witness, and to many through exposure to the Gospel message. Those who do not believe in the name of Jesus Christ, are already condemned, and the Gospel acts as their Judge.

The gospel message is for all, not many. Have you not read...

Luke 2:10
10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
(NIV)

The prime example is Pharoah, and God gives His own explanation of why He further hardened Pharoah's hard heart:

"For this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Romans 9:17 (Exodus 9:16)

So what's the problem. Pharoah didn't make his own choices? Sure he did.

You must not realize that you have just stated the Calvinistic view.

Then some clarification of terms needs to be done here. Because your view is that those condemned are so condemned because they have not received that one thing that allows them to be saved. If they had they would no longer be condemned (according to your view). And the only difference between a believer and an unbeliever is that one has gotten grace from God and the other has not. That is not the message from God.

We've gone over this before. Have you not read...

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
(NIV)

No fancy tricks, no fancy words, no changing the meaning by adding "kinds" to the verse, just what it says.

The problem is, dead men cannot choose to live. Dead men can only be dead. Same thing spiritually. Spiritually dead men cannot choose to live spiritually. They must first receive the Spirit of God before they can walk towards God.

Then I ask again. In John 12:40, why the ongoing continuous action of blinding and deadening? You can't make a person more blind or more dead if they are "totally depraved", right?

John 12:40
40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-- and I would heal them."
(NIV)

Stephen describes the unsaved condition of totally depraved men, who by nature, always resist God. Unsaved, totally depraved men are cursed with enmity against God and the things of God. Perhaps you are confusing sinners' ability to resist the things of God, with their inability to resist God's grace?

I don't think I'm confusing anything. Didn't I just show you in Titus where "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men"?

O.K. (Once, twice, . . .) Nope. Still convinced!

I'm sorry about that. I really am.

Then you are making salvation your reward for something that you did.

That is not grace at all. That is belief that one can earn salvation by human actions and works. That is not faith at all. That is depending upon yourself, and your own decisions, and not on the will of God.

The reward is God's and it is something we did. It is nothing less than following God's way and not our own.

If God said, "Walk on this path, this is the Way." And you walked on that path because it is the Way and someone asked you what you were doing? And you responded that you were following the path God laid out for you, you could not claim that the Way was yours. It is God's way and we can choose to follow it or not. There is no other way.

OneFollowingHim

[Reader]

Reader, you're silly.



The gospel message is for all, not many. Have you not read...

Luke 2:10
10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
(NIV)

But not all humankind has heard the Gospel. So this "all the people" cannot be understood in a universal sense.

Prior to the incarnation of Christ, the only people who knew of Jehovah God, was the nation of Israel and a handful of Gentiles who came in contact with them. The rest of humanity perished without ever knowing the written Law and Promises of God Almighty. The Jewish nation knew that the promises pertained to them as a particular and special people and that the Messiah would come from their lineage.

But when the Christ child was born, the angels announced Him as "great joy that will be for all the people." Gentiles as well as the Jews, for the Christ came to save souls ". . out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation." (Rev. 5:9, 7:9)

It is unrealistic to think that Christ came to save men universally, but then the Holy Spirit fails to call and expose all men to the Holy Scriptures and the Gospel message. Multitudes die without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ or finding a Bible to read. This is the will of God, else historical and present circumstances would be different. That is reality. Wishing it were different does not change reality. Wishing God meant something different, does not change what God actually does.

your view is that those condemned are so condemned because they have not received that one thing that allows them to be saved.

Not at all. My view is that all men are condemned for their sins and unbelief. All men are born under the curse of God because of the inheritance of Adam's sinful nature. The only thing that reverses Godly condemnation, is God's grace. Grace resides in the heart of the One who can bestow it; not in the heart of potential recipients. Grace is God's possession; not a human option.

If they had they would no longer be condemned (according to your view).

You are putting your words in my mouth; transferring your views to my mind. You are the one who believes that salvation depends upon the sinner's "acceptance" of God and His grace. That is not my view at all. I believe receiving God's grace comes solely by the choice of God, and that God's grace is a spiritual resurrection. A new birth that creates a new spiritual person in Christ. And just as none of us had any choice in our physical birth into existance; none of us have any choice in whether we are spiritually born again. That new life only comes from God, according to the will of God. Only God determined which condemned sinners He would pardon, according to Christ's work on the cross. Spiritual regeneration is totally the Covenant plan and performance of the Triune God. Man plays no part at all in his justification and salvation, and only walks a holy life of sanctification because of union with the Father, by the Son, through the abiding Holy Spirit of God.

And the only difference between a believer and an unbeliever is that one has gotten grace from God and the other has not. That is not the message from God.

That is the message of the entire Bible. From Genesis 3:15 to the end of Revelation, saints are taught the antithesis between the children of promise and the children of bondage. Starting with Cain and Abel, Noah against the world, Isaac versus Ishmael, Jacob being loved and Esau being hated, Saul fighting David, the Israelites killing their prophets sent by God, Jesus Christ being crucified by men of flesh, the church of Christ and the Word of God assailed by false prophets, etc. etc.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:28&29

There are only two kinds of human beings: offspring of the first Adam who serve sin, death, and the devil . . .and spiritual offspring of the promised "Seed," Jesus Christ, who by the grace of God serve righteousness. Unbelievers, and believers. Reprobates and saints. Condemned and forgiven. Ungodly and godly. Wicked and righteous. Either/or. All dependent upon the purposes and good pleasure so ". . that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls." Romans 9:11

Then I ask again. In John 12:40, why the ongoing continuous action of blinding and deadening? You can't make a person more blind or more dead if they are "totally depraved", right?

The purpose (and curse of God) is to leave condemned and blind men, condemned and blind. That is His judgment against their sinful natures. The continuous hardening is a natural matter of course. Death is the certain and eventual end. Enmity against God, personal unbelief, the deceptions of the god of this age, all contribute to the hardening of the reprobate's heart.

John 12:40
40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-- and I would heal them."
(NIV)


Jesus taught and explained this truth, this way:

". . To you (children of promise) it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that, 'Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'" Luke 8:10

This teaching of Christ reveals that God is sovereign over who will receive His grace and be gifted with faith through hearing and comprehending the Holy Scriptures. The rest are left in their spiritual darkness. Do you not see that this verse alone destroys the false teaching of "decisional regeneration?"

God sovereignly determines who will hear and believe the Gospel and who will not. It is His call. Not the call or choice of any sinner! Grace is a free gift of life from God to undeserving condemned and dead men.

And just as all of us received physical life from God through no choices or decisions of our own will, so it is that the new spiritual life comes by no choices or decisions of our will. We are all born without say, from the first Adam. And all those born spiritually from the last Adam, Jesus Christ, receive life, without say, solely according to His will and grace, by divine election.

The reward is God's and it is something we did. It is nothing less than following God's way and not our own.

If God said, "Walk on this path, this is the Way." And you walked on that path because it is the Way and someone asked you what you were doing? And you responded that you were following the path God laid out for you, you could not claim that the Way was yours. It is God's way and we can choose to follow it or not. There is no other way.

Now you speak of the new spiritual life; the sanctified, holy, and obedient life of the Christian, who has already been born again and has Christ abiding within. There is no argument that the Christian will walk according to God's will and commands. That is evidence one is a true child of God.

But you are applying the sanctified walk as a criteria for being saved and sanctified. And you are assuming unsaved men can walk in obedience to God's holy instructions. Condemned men are not born again by their obedience to the Law, because no natural, unsaved man can obey God's Law. Condemned men are only born again by the Holy Spirit of God, who changes their hearts, resurrects them to a new spiritual life, and gifts them with the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to believe and repent of sins. . . .THEN we see saints walking in the paths of God . . .because this wonderful miracle of new life has already occurred.

Spiritual regeneration is usually invisible and temporarily undetectable to the elected soul. Sometimes, one has a stupendous conversion, like Saul on the road to Damascus, but in most cases, the Holy Spirit brings new spiritual life to the sinner without immediate notice:

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

It is after the Holy Spirit regenerates new life in the dead sinner, that the resurrected soul begins to comprehend the Gospel message and things of God, and he believes what he hears. The sinner exhibits faith and begins to hate his sinful ways. The inner workings of God upon his heart were unbeknownst to him at first, so he often mistakes the changes in his life as being the result of his choices and his own fruit of conscience.

But as he carefully studies the Holy Scriptures, he learns that God changed his heart, and God awakened his conscience, and God gave him faith, and God granted him the new desire to repent of sins, and God gave him a love of the Word and God changed his will to walk according to the commands of God, and God gave him the desire to submit and subject himself as a servant of righteousness. He learns he loves God, because God first loved him. (I John 4:19)

A Christian confesses from his heart his belief in Jesus Christ and he chooses to love and obey the Father and live by the Words inspired by the Holy Spirit . . .but this is the blessed result of God's resurrection power and the fruit of His divine grace

Soli deo Gloria!.

[rhutchin]

OneFollowingHim

Your views certainly are not the extreme ones that create problems with interpretation. I think only God can save, but that does not mean that I think He saves certain individuals by giving those select few the thing they need to believe and be saved. That is not what scripture teaches. There is a balanced view that says God's sovereignty and man's free will are both at play at the same time.

My view should be the same as the extreme view since Calvinism is Calvinism and differences among Calvinists relate to some esoteric issues (e.g., the infras vs the supras)

If people are saved, don't we say that God has saved them? If people are not saved, don't we say that God has not saved them so we pray to God to save them?

Why do people pray to God to save anyone if it is only a "free will" decision and God cannot influence that decision? Are all those who pray for the salvation of others Calvinists? Do Arminians only pray that God will give a person a knowledge of Christ and then leave it up to the person to decide? I know people who are Arminian but they will pray to God to save particular individuals. Do you know what they want God to do when they pray in that manner?