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Roe V Wade Is Doomed...
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostJim, you claimed "the majority support a womens right to an abortion even if, for whatever reason, they just don't want a child." That rather implies no limits whatsoever.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post"for whatever reason" does far more than just imply.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostJim, you claimed "the majority support a womens right to an abortion even if, for whatever reason, they just don't want a child." That rather implies no limits whatsoever.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostJim, you claimed "the majority support a womens right to an abortion even if, for whatever reason, they just don't want a child." That rather implies no limits whatsoever.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, it doesn't OBP. The restrictions to abortion have nothing to do with whether the woman wants a child or not.
1) age of fetus
2) age of woman
3) life of the mother
4) incest/rape
Only 'age of fetus' still permits selection purely due to wish - under twenty one weeks in most states a woman, who is of age, can have an abortion for any reason. The remaining restrictions do not permit that. Even age of fetus is being curtailed - fetal heartbeat occurs much earlier. The majority of Americans favor most, if not all, of these restrictions (and some others) - under no rational logic can the point that they favor abortion on demand as you are arguing be supported.
As I recall, in surveys where it's been addressed, the majority of Americans express discomfort with the idea of abortion on demand - abortion because the woman doesn't want the child and quite a few actively oppose the premise."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt's not necessarily a contradiction between not wanting a child and having limits on abortions. It's about timing, not motivation. The generally agreed limit is fetal viability, i.e. before the end of the second trimester. In fact the vast majority occur during the first trimester.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostJim said nothing about timing, Tassman. Per Jim's motivation, timing is wholly irrelevant.
Heck, Jim's motivation would be equally applicable to infanticide - "eh, don't feel like caring for a child any more."“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostMost think there should be limits to abortion, usually limited to before fetal viability. This explains why the vast majority of abortions occur in the first trimester...long before the fetus is viable.
Ultrasound (a real bane to the pro-abortion side) can detect a heartbeat as early as between 5½ and 6½ weeks after conception (that would be in the first trimester) Another source says 6 to 7 weeks (still first trimester).
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostA survey conducted by the Barna Group poll early last year found that just under seven out of ten Americans (69%) think that if a doctor is able to detect the heartbeat of an unborn baby, that baby should be legally protected.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28709[/ATTACH]
Ultrasound (a real bane to the pro-abortion side) can detect a heartbeat as early as between 5½ and 6½ weeks after conception (that would be in the first trimester) Another source says 6 to 7 weeks (still first trimester).“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhy? The fetus is not viable at that stage, it’s a part of the mother’s body and the mother also has rights which must be protected.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post...but not viable."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWell no. Jim was concerned with having limitations on abortions, as are most people. And the most commonly accepted limitation is fetal viability, i.e. prior to the end of the second trimester.
Again, a women "not wanting a child" could have a range of sound reasons not just the idle whim, which you were implying. These reasons could include "rape, incest, clear evidence of fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother." As per the 1971 SBC Resolution on abortion.
As to the heartbeat. This is a developing human being. Once there is a heartbeat, once there are brainwaves, this is now no longer just a mass of undifferentiated cells, this is a budding human being. And with each day that passes, this baby becomes more and more and more a baby. MOST women that suffer a miscarriage mourn the passing of their 10 week old 'fetus' with the same power and distress as a women that loses a child at birth, or at any time thereafter. This is built in. Your 'convenience is God' approach to abortion ignores millions of years of human evolution that causes most women to be capable of giving their lives to ensure the life of their unborn child. And it ignores our intrinsic moral nature that in most of us can't just rationalize away the choice to end an human life for 'convenience'.
There are rational compromises that could be reached on this issue, just like there are rational compromises that could be reached on gun ownership.
But a bit part of the problem is the unwillingness to admit that 'sex is not just for fun' and that the reason marriage exists in the world is that people shouldn't be fiddling around with the power to create a human life like it was just another board game or a new edition of Mario Bro's.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 07-05-2018, 09:55 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post...but not viable.
In any case the heartbeat at that stage (once again ultrasound is the bane of the pro-abortion movement[1]) demonstrates that we're dealing with much more than a clump of tissue here as many in the pro-abortion side wanted you to believe. We are dealing with a human life. When a woman has an abortion after 6 to 7 weeks she is killing a human being.
1. Ultrasound is what convinced the dyed-in-the-wool fanatical pro-abortion co-founder of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws (NARAL) to change his mind about abortion, find God and become an outspoken pro-life spokesman.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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