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Commander of Angelic Army

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  • #16
    Rest of reply to Scrawly @13 above:

    As to Isa. 44.6: it is true that it calls God *go’el*, “redeemer” - the word used for the “angel” in Gen.48.16. However, it need not follow that because God is the Redeemer in Isa.44.6, the “redeemer” in Gen.48.16 is God.
    • For starters, they are different books, so ISTM that one should be very cautious about using the ideas in one to explain the ideas in the other.
    • Second point: God can redeem through a created being, angel or man, as well as without them. Either way, the redemption is totally and always God’s doing. That it is sometimes worked through an intermediary changes this not at all. So the fact that an angel is mentioned as effecting it, is not a reason for thinking the angel to be God.
    • I think the Angel of the Lord is a species of messenger. In the ANE and the Classical world, the messenger was basically an “extension” of the sender. To insult the messenger was to insult the sender. The Angel of the Lord is, if seen this way, a “mechanism” for carrying out God’s Will, but is not God. St Luke 10.16 is influenced by the same idea: the Apostles are mere men, but the authority behind their preaching is that of God, so to reject them is really to reject God and Christ Who sent them.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 07-01-2018, 12:16 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
      IÂ’m not a specialist in the OT. IÂ’m open to any and all possibilities. If the evidence, textual or otherwise, favours:
      • henotheism
      • polydaemonism
      • polytheism
      • the recognition of a female consort for JHWH
      • a mixture of the preceding at the same time in different parts of Israel/Judah
      • strict monotheism throughout the history of the Chosen People (basically, the traditional Christian pre-critical approach)
      • other solutions

      - then I donÂ’t exclude any of them on *a priori* grounds.
      That's good. Some people reject a position a priori because it collides with their methodology and worldview. For example, some people utterly refuse the possibility that the Angel of the Lord could very well have been the pre-incarnate Christ because their philosophy and worldview precludes that possibility. Likewise, others absolutely reject the notion that Israelite religion was influenced by it's ANE neighbors because of prior theological commitments.

      I think the *bene elohim* of Gen.6.1-4 were, for the author of the passage, lower-ranking deities, equivalent to, or the same beings as, the “sons of El” at Ugarit; and that the “god” of the Jabbok could have been a river-deity or *numen*, perhaps like Achelous or Skamander in Classical mythology.
      Why couldn't the "sons of God" in Gen. 6:1-4 be a rank of angels?

      If the “queen of heaven” in Jer. 7 & 44 was a goddess worshipped (officially or not) as the queen-consort of JHWH, a sort of Jewish Asherah or Ishtar, then I have no problem with that possibility.
      Throughout the OT, the Israelite's were often involved in idolatrous practices, and those instances were recorded as such.

      And the texts themselves have complicated histories, so those facts too must be respected. I donÂ’t expect the texts to give a harmonious and uniform picture of OT theism
      Why not?

      if they give contradictory pictures of how God was thought of, I take that contradiction as part of the overall message of the OT as a whole.
      What if those differing pictures of God are all part of his multifaceted being?

      STM that the human reality of the texts is the way to beginning to see what they meant as inspired Scripture. If the kings of Judah gave a place to Baal and Asherah alongside JHWH, and if this was in later times regarded with disfavour by the authors of Kings & Chronicles and re-interpreted by them, as having been sinful, then fair enough.
      I don't see the evidence from scripture that it was ever permissible to worship other gods; the fact that some Israelite's engaged in idolatry did not make it permissible.

      I don’t think the traditional Christian strict monotheistic approach to the OT does justice to the OT as the pre-Christian, culturally alien, humanly varied thing it is. The *bene elohim* in Job 38 may seem to Christians to be angels - but is that how the author(s) of Job saw them ? The same applies to the seraphim of Isaiah 6, or to the cherubim. Or to the “commander of the host of JHWH” in Josh.5.
      I still don't have sufficient reason to believe that these sons of God are anything other than various classes of angels. I have good reason to believe the angel of the Lord is something other than a created being however, and this aligns well with the one God's complex unity.

      Baal-worship was seen as a threat during the regnal period. Conversely, the god of Israel is called “(El) Elyon”, “(God) Most High”, which, while by no means proof that other deities were taken to be serious competitors for Israel’s allegiance to him, is certainly consistent with the idea. The epithet could be an expression of something like transcendence, or, it may mean only that he was “a great king above all gods” - as is said in Ps.95.3. The assembly-scenes in 1 Kings 22 and Job 1 seem to express something different from strict monotheism.
      Ps. 95:3 could be construed as henotheistic, but it's not a necessary interpretation. The spirit of 1Kings 22:21-22 seems to be a corrupt angel that God is sovereign over. Job 1:6-8 likewise seems to be a counsel of various ranking angels, and among them, Satan.

      Of course, there is the detail that what counts as monotheism has varied through the ages: Trinitarian monotheism might well look like something less than monotheism from a Jewish POV.
      For the Jews that reject Jesus, yes it would look different. However, for Messianic Jews, many of them regard the Trinity as properly Monotheistic. In fact, Jewish thinkers in the second temple period espoused a two powers in heaven doctrine or binitarianism precisely because of texts like Gen. 19:24:

      Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven

      It does not help matters that polytheism and monotheism can be seen as versions of each other.
      This is usually the result of confusing Trinitarianism with Tritheism.

      That makes sense, as the “commander” is a numinous, “unhuman” being. It does not show that the “commander” is God.
      I think a better explanation is that the Angel of the Lord/the Commander functions as a member of the Triune Godhead.

      Joshua’s action, like that of Moses, distinguishes the “sacred” area of the apparition from the “profane” area surrounding it. This distinction was part and parcel of ANE and Classical religion. It is why Muslims wash before handling the Koran, and why Catholics dip their fingers in water before entering church. It is why the sanctuary of a church is “set apart” from the rest of the interior. And why the Temple was divided into different areas, of increasing un-profaneness/sacredness, from the Court of the Gentiles, to the Most Holy Place. What Jesus does, is to be, among “profane”, actually sinful, mankind, not the Most Holy Place, but the even more sacred “Place” of God, of which the MHP is the earthly counterpart.
      OK, but what we see the with Angel of the Lord is him issuing commands in his own authority and not a "thus says the Lord" authority. Indeed, the Angel of the Lord and Yahweh are simultaneously present yet separate from one another Ex. 3:1-4:

      Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian; he led his flock beyond the wilderness, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of a bush; he looked, and the bush was blazing, yet it was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I must turn aside and look at this great sight, and see why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the Lord saw that he had turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am." See also Jdg. 6:11-24.

      For the same reason I donÂ’t see Castor and Pollux at Lake Regillus as angels. The *stories* are, as stories, of the same kind: narratives, from whatever sources, of heavenly warriors fighting for the winning side. The motif by itself tells one nothing about either
      (1) the “historicity” of the story
      or
      (2) the theological significance of the narrative.
      My point was that in the context of Israelite religion, I see no reason to believe that other gods literally existed that could not be construed as angels or demons of some sort.

      The comparison raises the possibility that, if God sent His angel to fight for the Chosen People, maybe He did likewise for the Romans. Maybe the story of Rome, from the Fall of Troy to the principate of Augustus, is as much a “sacred history” (albeit a non-Biblical one) as that of the Jews/Israelites. None of the empires of the past - or the present - could have grown as they did but for Divine Providence. This does not imply or require that they were virtuous; only that God had a purpose to work out through them. Including the Israelites/Jews.
      This is interesting speculation.

      IMHO that Christianises the OT too much. IMHO, the Trinity is not to be found anywhere in the OT; I think the Tri-Unity of God has to wait for the Person of Christ to be revealed, since He alone is a fully adequate Revelation of the Father. The Jews had enough trouble getting it into their heads that God was One & Unique & Incomparable - there were thousands of gods in the ANE, and no lack of Divine triads, dyads, quartets, and other groups of gods; not to mention hypostatised Divine attributes. Working out a Christian doctrine of the Trinity took centuries, even in a culture that was gradually putting the old gods aside. So there is a good *a priori* case against the idea that the Trinity was revealed or intimated in the OT, even before one gets down to the OT texts adduced in support of the idea.
      I disagree. I think the complex unity of the Godhead is indeed found in the OT, including the Holy Spirit, see Isa. 63:10. Many Jewish believers in Christ agree.

      The angel St Gabriel faithfully expresses the Divine purpose when he greets the BVM, but no-one thinks the angel is a Divine Person.
      The angel Gabriel would not say what the Commander said when he received "worship" in Joshua did in 5:13-15. He would have rebuked him as the angel did in Rev. 22:9.
      Last edited by Scrawly; 07-01-2018, 07:52 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
        Rest of reply to Scrawly @13 above:

        As to Isa. 44.6: it is true that it calls God *go’el*, “redeemer” - the word used for the “angel” in Gen.48.16. However, it need not follow that because God is the Redeemer in Isa.44.6, the “redeemer” in Gen.48.16 is God.
        • For starters, they are different books, so ISTM that one should be very cautious about using the ideas in one to explain the ideas in the other.
        • Second point: God can redeem through a created being, angel or man, as well as without them. Either way, the redemption is totally and always God’s doing. That it is sometimes worked through an intermediary changes this not at all. So the fact that an angel is mentioned as effecting it, is not a reason for thinking the angel to be God.
        • I think the Angel of the Lord is a species of messenger. In the ANE and the Classical world, the messenger was basically an “extension” of the sender. To insult the messenger was to insult the sender. The Angel of the Lord is, if seen this way, a “mechanism” for carrying out God’s Will, but is not God. St Luke 10.16 is influenced by the same idea: the Apostles are mere men, but the authority behind their preaching is that of God, so to reject them is really to reject God and Christ Who sent them.
        Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

        This rendering of Isa. 44:6 in the NRSV is a good illustration of plurality in the Divinity that we find throughout the OT.

        Comment


        • #19
          I forgot to mention Gen. 16:7-14:

          The angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, slave-girl of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am running away from my mistress Sarai.” The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit to her.” The angel of the Lord also said to her, “I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude.” And the angel of the Lord said to her,

          “Now you have conceived and shall bear a son;
          you shall call him Ishmael,
          for the Lord has given heed to your affliction.
          He shall be a wild ass of a man,
          with his hand against everyone,
          and everyone’s hand against him;
          and he shall live at odds with all his kin.”

          So she named the Lord who spoke to her, “You are El-roi”; for she said, “Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; it lies between Kadesh and Bered.


          The Angel of the Lord is a species of messenger? "THE LORD WHO SPOKE TO HER"; "THE LORD WHO SEES/El-ROI"; "SEEN GOD AND REMAINED ALIVE" -- do you think that the Apostle's would be OK with such pronouncements directed at them (Luke 10:16)?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            So who do you say the commander of the army of the Lord is?
            How should I know? The Bible doesn't say.
            When I Survey....

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke
              Or why not the Father appearing in human form?

              He did - in Christ Jesus.
              Err...that's not really correct.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                Err...that's not really correct.
                Aside from the fact that you really mangled the quote, no - it's oversimplistic.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rushing Jaws
                  IMHO that Christianises the OT too much. IMHO, the Trinity is not to be found anywhere in the OT; I think the Tri-Unity of God has to wait for the Person of Christ to be revealed, since He alone is a fully adequate Revelation of the Father.
                  In Ezekiel 1, Ezekiel sees a man-like image on a throne, who I take to be the Word of God. The figure speaks, but there are also two other divine voices listed — one from the throne, and one from the angels' wings — for a total of three voices with one image.

                  Isaiah 63 mentions the Father, along with the "angel of his presence," and the Holy Spirit.

                  Jeremiah 1 has the Word of God appearing to Jeremiah, giving a message from "the Lord" (presumably the Father), and touching Jeremiah's lips to put his own words into Jeremiah (presumably the Holy Spirit).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Doesn't the bible say that no one has seen the Father?
                    Jesus said to the religious leaders of His time (Jews, John 5:18) that they never heard His voice nor have seen his visible form (eidos, from which we get idolatry, the worship of idols) at any time.

                    John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 tell us that nobody has seen God at any time.

                    But we learn in Numbers 12:8 that God spoke to Moses and that Moses saw God face to face. Is that to mean he only saw what we nowadays refer to as an avatar? Or was this to be looked on as an exception to the basic rule of John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12? Or is this what you refer to as a Christophany? Or a theophany?

                    I'm not really looking for answers. Just taking the Word of God at face value.
                    When I Survey....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post
                      But we learn in Numbers 12:8 that God spoke to Moses and that Moses saw God face to face.
                      I looked that up in a whole bunch of translations, and it's frequently "mouth to mouth"...


                      New International Version
                      With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

                      New Living Translation
                      I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! He sees the LORD as he is. So why were you not afraid to criticize my servant Moses?"

                      English Standard Version
                      With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

                      Berean Study Bible
                      I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you unafraid to speak against My servant Moses?”

                      New American Standard Bible
                      With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"

                      King James Bible
                      With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

                      Christian Standard Bible
                      I speak with him directly, openly, and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. So why were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

                      Contemporary English Version
                      He sees me face to face, and everything I say to him is perfectly clear. You have no right to criticize my servant Moses."

                      Good News Translation
                      So I speak to him face-to-face, clearly and not in riddles; he has even seen my form! How dare you speak against my servant Moses?"

                      Holman Christian Standard Bible
                      I speak with him directly, openly, and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?"

                      International Standard Version
                      I speak to him audibly and in visions, not in mysteries. If he can gaze at the image of the LORD, why aren't you afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

                      NET Bible
                      With him I will speak face to face, openly, and not in riddles; and he will see the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

                      New Heart English Bible
                      With him I will speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in riddles; and he shall see the LORD's form. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?"

                      GOD'S WORD® Translation
                      I speak with him face to face, plainly and not in riddles. He even sees the form of the LORD. Why weren't you afraid to criticize my servant Moses?"

                      JPS Tanakh 1917
                      with him do I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD doth he behold; wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?'

                      New American Standard 1977
                      With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?”

                      Jubilee Bible 2000
                      With him I will speak mouth to mouth and by sight not by enigmas; he shall see the similitude of the LORD. Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my slave Moses?

                      King James 2000 Bible
                      With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even clearly, and not in dark sayings; and the form of the LORD shall he behold: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

                      American King James Version
                      With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

                      American Standard Version
                      with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of Jehovah shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?

                      Douay-Rheims Bible
                      For I speak to him mouth to mouth: and plainly, and not by riddles and figures doth he see the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak ill of my servant Moses?

                      Darby Bible Translation
                      Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold. Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?

                      English Revised Version
                      with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?

                      Webster's Bible Translation
                      With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

                      World English Bible
                      With him I will speak mouth to mouth, even plainly, and not in riddles; and he shall see Yahweh's form. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?"

                      Young's Literal Translation
                      mouth unto mouth I speak with him, and by an appearance, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah he beholdeth attentively; and wherefore have ye not been afraid to speak against My servant -- against Moses?'


                      I think the general consensus I've found is that the "face to face" there is an expression that means "as a close friend".

                      I'm not really looking for answers.
                      But you didn't actually expect not to get any?

                      Just taking the Word of God at face value.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Faber View Post
                        Jesus said to the religious leaders of His time (Jews, John 5:18) that they never heard His voice nor have seen his visible form (eidos, from which we get idolatry, the worship of idols) at any time.

                        John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 tell us that nobody has seen God at any time.

                        But we learn in Numbers 12:8 that God spoke to Moses and that Moses saw God face to face. Is that to mean he only saw what we nowadays refer to as an avatar? Or was this to be looked on as an exception to the basic rule of John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12? Or is this what you refer to as a Christophany? Or a theophany?

                        I'm not really looking for answers. Just taking the Word of God at face value.
                        When the NT uses "God" it is usually referring to the person of the Father. But in the OT, "God" referred to the Truine God, since there was no real distinction in the persons of the Trinity revealed at that time.

                        I think all theophanies in the OT were of the Son. Including when Moses saw God's back (PS Num 12 doesn't say he saw God face to face. God is saying he spoke to Moses mouth to mouth. When Moses asked to see God's face, he refused and let him see his glory in passing, or his back. I believe that was the Son he saw.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I posted this in the Nobody-Dies-for-a-Lie thread when Shuny basically said there was no evidence from the O.T. that the Triune God was revealed.
                          Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                          Jews do claim a strict Monotheist view...but they obviously do not know their own Scriptures. Their are multiple places in the Old Testament Hebrew where the name used for God is plural. Virtually all Hebrew Scholars acknowledge that the word used many times for God in the Hebrew Scriptures, Elohim, is a plural noun. Genesis 1:26 for instance, "...let US make man in OUR own image..." Genesis 20:13: “And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander [literally: They caused me to wander] from my father’s house…" Genesis 35:7: “…because there God (Elohim) appeared unto him…” [Literally: They appeared unto him.] 2 Samuel 7:23: “…God (Elohim) went…” [Literally: They went.]

                          Of course they appeal to the Shema of Deut. 6:4. So, to begin with, the words "Our God" in the text is again, plural and literally mean "our Gods"...but putting that aside, we have the translation of the Hebrew word "echad". But, if you look through the Old Testament, you see that the word "echad" doesn't mean a singular or absolute "one", but a compound "one". Look at Gen 1:5 The combination of evening and morning make up "one" day. Gen 2:24, a man and a woman together in marriage ...and the two shall be one (echad). In Ezra 2:64 we are told the whole assembly was as one again, (echad). So, as we can see, the use of the word echad in Scripture doesn't mean a single unit one, but a compound unit one. There is a word in Hebrew for a single unit of one, it's "yachid". So, If Moses wanted to teach Israels God was an absolute one instead of a compound one, "yachid" would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of “yachid” and chose to use that word in his “Thirteen Articles of Faith” in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use “yachid” in reference to God.

                          And, there are places in the Hebrew Scripture that explicitly name either 2 or 3 different persons that are all referred to as "God". One example is Psalm 45:7-8:

                          “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
                          A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
                          You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
                          Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
                          With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

                          Notice that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

                          Another example is Hosea 1:6 - 7
                          6 She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. 7 But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”


                          The speaker is Elohim (See verse 6)who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

                          Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God.

                          Another example is Genesis 19:24 which reads:

                          “Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.”

                          Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

                          And finally, we have examples of 3 personalities in one passage of Old Testament Scripture Isaiah 48:12 - 16: (pay attention to the last sentence that I bolded)
                          12 “Listen to me, O Jacob,
                          and Israel, whom I called!
                          I am he; I am the first,
                          and I am the last.
                          13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth,
                          and my right hand spread out the heavens;
                          when I call to them,
                          they stand forth together.


                          14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen!
                          Who among them has declared these things?
                          The Lord loves him;
                          he shall perform his purpose on Babylon,
                          and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
                          15 I, even I, have spoken and called him;
                          I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.
                          16 Draw near to me, hear this:
                          from the beginning I have not spoken in secret,
                          from the time it came to be I have been there.”
                          And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.

                          So, as we can clearly see, the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth...and it is abundantly clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

                          There is another passage in Isaiah 63:7 - 14 that also names the Trinity, but it's not as overt...
                          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            ... He also doesn't refuse worship as other angels do in numerous occasions in the OT, and NT. ...
                            Would you be so kind as to cite one or two? I believe you are correct, but ATM I can't recall specific instances.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              Would you be so kind as to cite one or two? I believe you are correct, but ATM I can't recall specific instances.
                              Sure. One of the better examples is with Joshua.

                              Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”

                              14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?”

                              15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

                              We have Joshua bowing, and the Angel of the Lord repeating what was said at the burning bush. Which the Angel of the Lord was also said to be in.

                              Later you have the Angel of the Lord identifying Himself as the one who made the covenant with Israel, the one who brought them out of Egypt, and saying He's the one who swore to give them the Land of Canaan.

                              Judges 2:1The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 And I have also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; they will become traps for you, and their gods will become snares to you.’”

                              4 When the angel of the Lord had spoken these things to all the Israelites, the people wept aloud, 5 and they called that place Bokim.[a] There they offered sacrifices to the Lord.

                              In my mind people identifying someone as God is practically equivalent to worship, so we can check out where is Hagar identifying the Angel of the Lord as God*, and He doesn't correct her. There are also people who fear dying for simply seeing Him.

                              Genesis 16:11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

                              “You are now pregnant
                              and you will give birth to a son.
                              You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
                              for the Lord has heard of your misery.
                              12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
                              his hand will be against everyone
                              and everyone’s hand against him,
                              and he will live in hostility
                              toward[b] all his brothers.”

                              13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

                              Judges 13:17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”

                              18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]” 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.

                              22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

                              23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”

                              Judges 6:19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.

                              20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!”

                              23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.”

                              *Jacob does this also.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                                Sure. One of the better examples is with Joshua.

                                Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”

                                14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?”

                                15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

                                We have Joshua bowing, and the Angel of the Lord repeating what was said at the burning bush. Which the Angel of the Lord was also said to be in.

                                Later you have the Angel of the Lord identifying Himself as the one who made the covenant with Israel, the one who brought them out of Egypt, and saying He's the one who swore to give them the Land of Canaan.

                                Judges 2:1The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 And I have also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; they will become traps for you, and their gods will become snares to you.’”

                                4 When the angel of the Lord had spoken these things to all the Israelites, the people wept aloud, 5 and they called that place Bokim.[a] There they offered sacrifices to the Lord.

                                In my mind people identifying someone as God is practically equivalent to worship, so we can check out where is Hagar identifying the Angel of the Lord as God*, and He doesn't correct her. There are also people who fear dying for simply seeing Him.

                                Genesis 16:11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

                                “You are now pregnant
                                and you will give birth to a son.
                                You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
                                for the Lord has heard of your misery.
                                12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
                                his hand will be against everyone
                                and everyone’s hand against him,
                                and he will live in hostility
                                toward[b] all his brothers.”

                                13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

                                Judges 13:17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”

                                18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]” 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.

                                22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

                                23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”

                                Judges 6:19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.

                                20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!”

                                23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.”

                                *Jacob does this also.
                                I meant cases where an angel *refuses* worship. The only one I can think of is Rev. 19:10.

                                Sorry for being unclear.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                                Comment

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