Commander of Angelic Army

[Obsidian]

Or why not the Father appearing in human form?

He did - in Christ Jesus.

Err...that's not really correct.

[Cow Poke]

Err...that's not really correct.

Aside from the fact that you really mangled the quote, no - it's oversimplistic.

[Obsidian]

IMHO that Christianises the OT too much. IMHO, the Trinity is not to be found anywhere in the OT; I think the Tri-Unity of God has to wait for the Person of Christ to be revealed, since He alone is a fully adequate Revelation of the Father.

In Ezekiel 1, Ezekiel sees a man-like image on a throne, who I take to be the Word of God. The figure speaks, but there are also two other divine voices listed — one from the throne, and one from the angels' wings — for a total of three voices with one image.

Isaiah 63 mentions the Father, along with the "angel of his presence," and the Holy Spirit.

Jeremiah 1 has the Word of God appearing to Jeremiah, giving a message from "the Lord" (presumably the Father), and touching Jeremiah's lips to put his own words into Jeremiah (presumably the Holy Spirit).

[Faber]

Doesn't the bible say that no one has seen the Father?

Jesus said to the religious leaders of His time (Jews, John 5:18) that they never heard His voice nor have seen his visible form (eidos, from which we get idolatry, the worship of idols) at any time.

John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 tell us that nobody has seen God at any time.

But we learn in Numbers 12:8 that God spoke to Moses and that Moses saw God face to face. Is that to mean he only saw what we nowadays refer to as an avatar? Or was this to be looked on as an exception to the basic rule of John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12? Or is this what you refer to as a Christophany? Or a theophany?

I'm not really looking for answers. Just taking the Word of God at face value.

[Cow Poke]

But we learn in Numbers 12:8 that God spoke to Moses and that Moses saw God face to face.

I looked that up in a whole bunch of translations, and it's frequently "mouth to mouth"...

New International Version
With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

New Living Translation
I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! He sees the LORD as he is. So why were you not afraid to criticize my servant Moses?"

English Standard Version
With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

Berean Study Bible
I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you unafraid to speak against My servant Moses?”

New American Standard Bible
With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"

King James Bible
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Christian Standard Bible
I speak with him directly, openly, and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. So why were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

Contemporary English Version
He sees me face to face, and everything I say to him is perfectly clear. You have no right to criticize my servant Moses."

Good News Translation
So I speak to him face-to-face, clearly and not in riddles; he has even seen my form! How dare you speak against my servant Moses?"

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I speak with him directly, openly, and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?"

International Standard Version
I speak to him audibly and in visions, not in mysteries. If he can gaze at the image of the LORD, why aren't you afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

NET Bible
With him I will speak face to face, openly, and not in riddles; and he will see the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

New Heart English Bible
With him I will speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in riddles; and he shall see the LORD's form. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I speak with him face to face, plainly and not in riddles. He even sees the form of the LORD. Why weren't you afraid to criticize my servant Moses?"

JPS Tanakh 1917
with him do I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD doth he behold; wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?'

New American Standard 1977
With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?”

Jubilee Bible 2000
With him I will speak mouth to mouth and by sight not by enigmas; he shall see the similitude of the LORD. Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my slave Moses?

King James 2000 Bible
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even clearly, and not in dark sayings; and the form of the LORD shall he behold: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

American King James Version
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

American Standard Version
with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of Jehovah shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?

Douay-Rheims Bible
For I speak to him mouth to mouth: and plainly, and not by riddles and figures doth he see the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak ill of my servant Moses?

Darby Bible Translation
Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold. Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?

English Revised Version
with him will I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the form of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?

Webster's Bible Translation
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

World English Bible
With him I will speak mouth to mouth, even plainly, and not in riddles; and he shall see Yahweh's form. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?"

Young's Literal Translation
mouth unto mouth I speak with him, and by an appearance, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah he beholdeth attentively; and wherefore have ye not been afraid to speak against My servant -- against Moses?'

I think the general consensus I've found is that the "face to face" there is an expression that means "as a close friend".

I'm not really looking for answers.

But you didn't actually expect not to get any?

Just taking the Word of God at face value.

[Sparko]

Jesus said to the religious leaders of His time (Jews, John 5:18) that they never heard His voice nor have seen his visible form (eidos, from which we get idolatry, the worship of idols) at any time.

John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 tell us that nobody has seen God at any time.

But we learn in Numbers 12:8 that God spoke to Moses and that Moses saw God face to face. Is that to mean he only saw what we nowadays refer to as an avatar? Or was this to be looked on as an exception to the basic rule of John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12? Or is this what you refer to as a Christophany? Or a theophany?

I'm not really looking for answers. Just taking the Word of God at face value.

When the NT uses "God" it is usually referring to the person of the Father. But in the OT, "God" referred to the Truine God, since there was no real distinction in the persons of the Trinity revealed at that time.

I think all theophanies in the OT were of the Son. Including when Moses saw God's back (PS Num 12 doesn't say he saw God face to face. God is saying he spoke to Moses mouth to mouth. When Moses asked to see God's face, he refused and let him see his glory in passing, or his back. I believe that was the Son he saw.

[Littlejoe]

I posted this in the Nobody-Dies-for-a-Lie thread when Shuny basically said there was no evidence from the O.T. that the Triune God was revealed.

Jews do claim a strict Monotheist view...but they obviously do not know their own Scriptures. Their are multiple places in the Old Testament Hebrew where the name used for God is plural. Virtually all Hebrew Scholars acknowledge that the word used many times for God in the Hebrew Scriptures, Elohim, is a plural noun. Genesis 1:26 for instance, "...let US make man in OUR own image..." Genesis 20:13: “And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander [literally: They caused me to wander] from my father’s house…" Genesis 35:7: “…because there God (Elohim) appeared unto him…” [Literally: They appeared unto him.] 2 Samuel 7:23: “…God (Elohim) went…” [Literally: They went.]

Of course they appeal to the Shema of Deut. 6:4. So, to begin with, the words "Our God" in the text is again, plural and literally mean "our Gods"...but putting that aside, we have the translation of the Hebrew word "echad". But, if you look through the Old Testament, you see that the word "echad" doesn't mean a singular or absolute "one", but a compound "one". Look at Gen 1:5 The combination of evening and morning make up "one" day. Gen 2:24, a man and a woman together in marriage ...and the two shall be one (echad). In Ezra 2:64 we are told the whole assembly was as one again, (echad). So, as we can see, the use of the word echad in Scripture doesn't mean a single unit one, but a compound unit one. There is a word in Hebrew for a single unit of one, it's "yachid". So, If Moses wanted to teach Israels God was an absolute one instead of a compound one, "yachid" would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of “yachid” and chose to use that word in his “Thirteen Articles of Faith” in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use “yachid” in reference to God.

And, there are places in the Hebrew Scripture that explicitly name either 2 or 3 different persons that are all referred to as "God". One example is Psalm 45:7-8:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Notice that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

Another example is Hosea 1:6 - 7

6 She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. 7 But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”

The speaker is Elohim (See verse 6)who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God.

Another example is Genesis 19:24 which reads:

“Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.”

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.

And finally, we have examples of 3 personalities in one passage of Old Testament Scripture Isaiah 48:12 - 16: (pay attention to the last sentence that I bolded)

12 “Listen to me, O Jacob,
and Israel, whom I called!
I am he; I am the first,
and I am the last.
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I call to them,
they stand forth together.


14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
he shall perform his purpose on Babylon,
and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken and called him;
I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.
16 Draw near to me, hear this:
from the beginning I have not spoken in secret,
from the time it came to be I have been there.”
And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.

So, as we can clearly see, the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth...and it is abundantly clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

There is another passage in Isaiah 63:7 - 14 that also names the Trinity, but it's not as overt...

[NorrinRadd]

... He also doesn't refuse worship as other angels do in numerous occasions in the OT, and NT. ...

Would you be so kind as to cite one or two? I believe you are correct, but ATM I can't recall specific instances.

[Cerebrum123]

Would you be so kind as to cite one or two? I believe you are correct, but ATM I can't recall specific instances.

Sure. One of the better examples is with Joshua.

Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”

14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?”

15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

We have Joshua bowing, and the Angel of the Lord repeating what was said at the burning bush. Which the Angel of the Lord was also said to be in.

Later you have the Angel of the Lord identifying Himself as the one who made the covenant with Israel, the one who brought them out of Egypt, and saying He's the one who swore to give them the Land of Canaan.

Judges 2:1The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 And I have also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; they will become traps for you, and their gods will become snares to you.’”

4 When the angel of the Lord had spoken these things to all the Israelites, the people wept aloud, 5 and they called that place Bokim.[a] There they offered sacrifices to the Lord.

In my mind people identifying someone as God is practically equivalent to worship, so we can check out where is Hagar identifying the Angel of the Lord as God*, and He doesn't correct her. There are also people who fear dying for simply seeing Him.

Genesis 16:11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”

13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

Judges 13:17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”

18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]” 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.

22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”

Judges 6:19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.

20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!”

23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.”

*Jacob does this also.

[NorrinRadd]

Sure. One of the better examples is with Joshua.

Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”

14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?”

15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

We have Joshua bowing, and the Angel of the Lord repeating what was said at the burning bush. Which the Angel of the Lord was also said to be in.

Later you have the Angel of the Lord identifying Himself as the one who made the covenant with Israel, the one who brought them out of Egypt, and saying He's the one who swore to give them the Land of Canaan.

Judges 2:1The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 And I have also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; they will become traps for you, and their gods will become snares to you.’”

4 When the angel of the Lord had spoken these things to all the Israelites, the people wept aloud, 5 and they called that place Bokim.[a] There they offered sacrifices to the Lord.

In my mind people identifying someone as God is practically equivalent to worship, so we can check out where is Hagar identifying the Angel of the Lord as God*, and He doesn't correct her. There are also people who fear dying for simply seeing Him.

Genesis 16:11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”

13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

Judges 13:17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”

18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]” 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.

22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”

Judges 6:19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.

20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!”

23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.”

*Jacob does this also.

I meant cases where an angel *refuses* worship. The only one I can think of is Rev. 19:10.

Sorry for being unclear.