Originally posted by Obsidian
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does the Trinity constitute three separate consciousnesses?
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Originally posted by Physiocrat View PostWell, classical theists I have come across argue that the term person here is a technical one which doesn't relate to what we normally understand by person. Now to what they use it mean, all I can gather is that there is Father, Son and Spirit, they aren't each but one and they only differences are the difference of procession as laid out in the OPOriginally posted by Physiocrat View PostWell to be fair they'd make a big difference between the pre and post-incarnate Son. The question though would be how do they reconcile the single mind of God and Jesus' mind especially with respect to the Garden of Gethsemane which seems to indicate two wills
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding something when it comes to what classical theists believe. If we're to go by your understanding of what they believe we'd pretty much have to condemn every classical theist as modalists/sabellianists. If there is only one consciousness in God then it would necessarily follow that Father, Son and Spirit are just separate roles that this one consciousness is playing.
Here's a discussion on the nature of the trinity which I think shows I'm being fair-
https://youtu.be/PMYM8ZRLabM
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Originally posted by Physiocrat View PostWell to be fair they'd make a big difference between the pre and post-incarnate Son. The question though would be how do they reconcile the single mind of God and Jesus' mind especially with respect to the Garden of Gethsemane which seems to indicate two willsIf it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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God is one Spirit (John 4:24) and we know Him as three distinct Persons (Romans 8:9, 16).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818God is one Spirit (John 4:24)
Also:
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
So there's another, too.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostThat verse mentions God (presumably the Father) being a Spirit, and it also mentions being worshipped in spirit (presumably referring to the Holy Spirit). So I would say that makes at least two spirits.
Also:
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
So there's another, too.Originally posted by 37818 View PostGod is one Spirit (John 4:24) and we know Him as three distinct Persons (Romans 8:9, 16).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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"But the boldest analogy of all is used by Jesus, who prays for believers 'that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us' (John 17:21).
… Even though the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have perfect and eternal unity, yet they remain distinct persons. In the same way, even though we shall someday attain perfect unity with other believers and with Christ, yet we shall forever remain distinct persons as well, with our own individual gifts, abilities, interests, responsibilities, circles of personal relationships, preferences, and desires."
Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology, 844."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI don't understand what point you are trying to make.
In Romans 8:9 refers to God the Father as the "Spirit of God," and the Son as the "Spirit of Christ," verse 16 the Spirit as Himself.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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The verse you cited from Romans is just saying that the Father and the Son both have control over the Spirit. The phrase "Spirit of Christ" is expressing ownership, or origin. It is saying: Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit, so if you are one of Jesus's people then you have the Spirit. It isn't saying that the Spirit is equivalent to either the Son, or the Father. Nor is it denying that the Father and the Son have their own spirits.
The other verse you are citing, John 4:24, is just saying that the Father is a spirit, and in order to worship him properly we need to use a spirit — specifically the Holy Spirit — to connect us to him. It isn't saying that the Holy Spirit and the Father are the same thing.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostThe verse you cited from Romans is just saying that the Father and the Son both have control over the Spirit. The phrase "Spirit of Christ" is expressing ownership, or origin. It is saying: Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit, so if you are one of Jesus's people then you have the Spirit. It isn't saying that the Spirit is equivalent to either the Son, or the Father. Nor is it denying that the Father and the Son have their own spirits.
The other verse you are citing, John 4:24, is just saying that the Father is a spirit, and in order to worship him properly we need to use a spirit — specifically the Holy Spirit — to connect us to him. It isn't saying that the Holy Spirit and the Father are the same thing.Last edited by 37818; 07-11-2018, 08:56 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIn context, "God" there refers to the Father. Jesus wasn't a "spirit," but a man.
" . . . for I am God, and not man; the Holy One . . . ." God to Hosah, Hosah 11:9.
When Jesus said, "God is a Spirit," He did not say "'The Father' is a Spirit." Limiting that to the Person of His Father. (John 5:18)
". . . He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. . . ." -- John 3:13.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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"God" is frequently used in the New Testament to refer to the Father specifically. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18). Besides, it wouldn't have made sense in context to say "the Father," because God wasn't the Father of the Samaritans. "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting." (Isaiah 63:16). Use some common sense, man. Your understanding of the Trinity seems pretty weak. Saying that Jesus is the same as the Holy Spirit is heresy.
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