Wrath of Chemosh(?)

[Scrawly]

[/B]. (2Kings 3:1-27)

I would like to hone in on the bolded: Mesha saw that the battle was going against him, and in a act of seeming desperation, entreated the Moabite deity Chemosh with a burnt offering of his first born son. After performing this sacrifice, "great wrath came upon Israel causing them to withdraw from the battlefield to their own land".

My question: What is the source of this "great wrath" that came upon Israel? Various interpretations that I looked at seem unsatisfactory, such as:

1) The Israelites were repulsed by the act of child sacrifice and left on their own volition. This doesn't cut mustard in my view as the Israelite's were a tribal people accustomed to war, and such a horrific act before their eyes would motivate the Israelite's all the more to extinguish such evil. This also fails to explain the "great wrath" that came upon the Israelite's. The text doesn't give any indication that the Israelite's left on their own volition because they were horrified and disgusted.

2) The Moabites were emboldened by Mesha's sacrifice to Chemosh. This caused the Moabite army to exert wrath upon Israel, routing the Israelite's out of Moabite territory. I disagree with this interpretation as well because it seems to fly in the face of Elisha's promise. This interpretation basically says that the Moabites were delivered into the Israelite's hands just as Elisha said...but in the end they lost the battle. I don't think so.

3) The Israelite's succumbed to superstitious fear after witnessing the sacrifice. This interpretation is plausible but fails to account for what the text actually says -- "great wrath came upon Israel". The text doesn't say: "great dread came upon them" (although I am not all that familiar with the semantic range of the Hebrew here).

OK, so with that said, the only viable interpretation I can think of is in relation to verses 2-3. I actually think this is Yahweh's wrath against Israel due to their sin and idolatry. The pagan sacrifice kindled Yahweh's anger against his own people because they too were engaged in idolatrous acts, so despite letting the Israelite's win the battle, they were reminded that they cannot win their rebellious war against their God Yahweh. The only other option seems to be of the critical persuasion that sees this great wrath as the wrath of Chemosh -- a very real god exerting very real wrath -- implicitly acknowledged by the monolatrous narrator of 2Kings.

How do you see this?

[KingsGambit]

I haven't looked at any scholarly commentaries or anything but the history books (Kings, Samuel, Chronicles) presuppose God as an agent in ultimate control of everything so it would be surprising to me if the author had any force other than the true God in mind there. (Think about the part where all the kings are listed, and the only factor considered in whether they were a good or bad king was how faithful they were to God).

[One Bad Pig]

It may well be that even Israel's 'victory' was part of God's wrath - if you were getting tribute from somewhere, destroying their means of producing anything makes it rather difficult to collect tribute from them in the future. Not only were the Israelites idolatrous, they dragged God's faithful followers into the conflict with them. There is no mention of the Israelites glorifying God for the water He gave them, either.

[Scrawly]

It may well be that even Israel's 'victory' was part of God's wrath - if you were getting tribute from somewhere, destroying their means of producing anything makes it rather difficult to collect tribute from them in the future. Not only were the Israelites idolatrous, they dragged God's faithful followers into the conflict with them. There is no mention of the Israelites glorifying God for the water He gave them, either.

Right, it seems obvious that the idolatrous Israelite's and their king Jehoram, would be reminded by Yahweh that he is not pleased with them despite any apparent victories in the battlefield. I just don't quite see how the wrath that came upon Israel manifested itself. After witnessing the sacrifice, was it an internal realization that they too were idolaters, "seeing" the wrath of Yahweh upon them, causing them to retreat and perform introspection and repentance?

[Scrawly]

I haven't looked at any scholarly commentaries or anything but the history books (Kings, Samuel, Chronicles) presuppose God as an agent in ultimate control of everything so it would be surprising to me if the author had any force other than the true God in mind there. (Think about the part where all the kings are listed, and the only factor considered in whether they were a good or bad king was how faithful they were to God).

I'm not in disagreement, but I would like to know how you interpret Judges 11:24, for example:

Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that the Lord our God has conquered for our benefit?

[KingsGambit]

I'm not in disagreement, but I would like to know how you interpret Judges 11:24, for example:

Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that the Lord our God has conquered for our benefit?

It's an individual quotation from a person in a book with an overarching theme of reporting what was done without endorsing it, so I see no warrant from drawing any broader theological conclusions from it.

[Obsidian]

2 Kings 3:27 KJV
Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

It probably just means that the Moabites got all riled up over the sacrifice, and the Israelites became afraid. They had already beaten the Moabites all across the countryside. But they lost faith at the end, so they didn't completely finish the job.

[Littlejoe]

Look at Daniel 10 for a comparison. Chemosh was the national "god" of Moab much like the Prince of Persia in Daniel 10. (It took Michael the Arch Angel to get the messenger free, but he had to hurry back to help Michael) The sacrifice of the son to Chemosh somehow empowered the Moabites to fight with great fury. Wrath does not have to be God derived...only divine wrath would be so. Since the Moabites had as their chief god an evil spirit, bent on the destruction of God's people, the sacrifice of the kings son to him may have unleashed demonic forces to inhabit the soldiers of Moab giving them temporary zeal and strength. The Bible is pretty clear that the ANE writers of the O.T. believed that God was the only God, but that he still reigned with a heavenly Council of created angelic beings sometimes referred to gods (with a little g). (See 1 Kings 22:20; Job 1:6; 2:1; Ps. 82:1; 89:7)

[Littlejoe]

It's an individual quotation from a person in a book with an overarching theme of reporting what was done without endorsing it, so I see no warrant from drawing any broader theological conclusions from it.

I think the ANE writers of the O.T. believed that chemosh did indeed exist. They would have believed he was created by Yahweh as one of his angels and joined the rebellion with Satan, They are often referred to as gods (or sons of God if not a part of the rebellion) and that he warred against Yahweh as an evil agent. This is pretty apparent in Scripture...it's just it's been systematically downplayed more and more. The ANE of the whole area including Israelites saw the world much differently than we do. The Israelites saw Satan and his evil cohorts as sea monsters Leviathan, Rahab, Behomoth and the waters were considered chaotic or even hostile/evil forces that also constantly battled Yahweh. However, they always believed and wrote that Yahweh was the Most powerful of all beings. Able to defeat all these forces of evil.

I just did a 6 month in-depth study on the Spiritual Warfare View of the Bible. It's part of the answer to the Problem of Evil IMO.

Recommend highly: "God At War: The Bible and Spiritual Conflict" by Gregory A. Boyd (Ph.d). IMHO, it's very well researched and documented.

[Cerebrum123]

I think the ANE writers of the O.T. believed that chemosh did indeed exist. They would have believed he was created by Yahweh as one of his angels and joined the rebellion with Satan, They are often referred to as gods (or sons of God if not a part of the rebellion) and that he warred against Yahweh as an evil agent. This is pretty apparent in Scripture...it's just it's been systematically downplayed more and more. The ANE of the whole area including Israelites saw the world much differently than we do. The Israelites saw Satan and his evil cohorts as sea monsters Leviathan, Rahab, Behomoth and the waters were considered chaotic or even hostile/evil forces that also constantly battled Yahweh. However, they always believed and wrote that Yahweh was the Most powerful of all beings. Able to defeat all these forces of evil.

I just did a 6 month in-depth study on the Spiritual Warfare View of the Bible. It's part of the answer to the Problem of Evil IMO.

Recommend highly: "God At War: The Bible and Spiritual Conflict" by Gregory A. Boyd (Ph.d). IMHO, it's very well researched and documented.

I think way too many people downplay the effect demons, principalities etc. have over the world. Now, there are some that over estimate it, like some saying they do little stuff like hide their car keys and such, but I haven't run into many of those.

[Littlejoe]

I think way too many people downplay the effect demons, principalities etc. have over the world. Now, there are some that over estimate it, like some saying they do little stuff like hide their car keys and such, but I haven't run into many of those.

I agree with you that Satan and his demons don't get enough credit for the evils of the world! Jesus even acknowledged Satan as the "prince" of this world. When tempted by Satan, Jesus never contested Satan's authority to offer him the "kingdoms of earth". I do believe that Jesus became Lord of the earth now though through the incarnation, death and resurrection. Satan is bound (at least to some degree) now by Jesus Christ. If you look at the sheer number of people possessed and oppressed in the Gospels, and extrapolate that over the whole earth it would seem that demonic activity is much less than back in that time. IMHO that is...

[Scrawly]

That's a great point. Chemosh was a demon. Elisha's prophecy came true as he stated (2Kings. 3:19), and yet Israel was punished for their sin (2Kings 3:1-3) by experiencing demonic wrath, permitted by Yahweh (cf. 1Kings 22:21-23).

[Obsidian]

[Cerebrum123]

The most natural reading of the text is that the sacrifice played a causal role in the "great wrath" being visited on the Israelites. Since they weren't the ones doing such an evil form of sacrifice, it makes little sense to say it was from God IMO.

[Obsidian]

It doesn't say that there was any wrath "visited" upon anyone. It says:

2 Kings 3:27
Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.