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Wrath of Chemosh(?)

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  • Wrath of Chemosh(?)

    In the eighteenth year of King Jehoshaphat of Judah, Jehoram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria; he reigned twelve years. 2 He did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, though not like his father and mother, for he removed the pillar of Baal that his father had made. 3 Nevertheless he clung to the sin of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he caused Israel to commit; he did not depart from it.

    4 Now King Mesha of Moab was a sheep breeder, who used to deliver to the king of Israel one hundred thousand lambs, and the wool of one hundred thousand rams. 5 But when Ahab died, the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel. 6 So King Jehoram marched out of Samaria at that time and mustered all Israel. 7 As he went he sent word to King Jehoshaphat of Judah, “The king of Moab has rebelled against me; will you go with me to battle against Moab?” He answered, “I will; I am with you, my people are your people, my horses are your horses.” 8 Then he asked, “By which way shall we march?” Jehoram answered, “By the way of the wilderness of Edom.”

    9 So the king of Israel, the king of Judah, and the king of Edom set out; and when they had made a roundabout march of seven days, there was no water for the army or for the animals that were with them. 10 Then the king of Israel said, “Alas! The Lord has summoned us, three kings, only to be handed over to Moab.” 11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Is there no prophet of the Lord here, through whom we may inquire of the Lord?” Then one of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on the hands of Elijah, is here.” 12 Jehoshaphat said, “The word of the Lord is with him.” So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him.

    13 Elisha said to the king of Israel, “What have I to do with you? Go to your father’s prophets or to your mother’s.” But the king of Israel said to him, “No; it is the Lord who has summoned us, three kings, only to be handed over to Moab.” 14 Elisha said, “As the Lord of hosts lives, whom I serve, were it not that I have regard for King Jehoshaphat of Judah, I would give you neither a look nor a glance. 15 But get me a musician.” And then, while the musician was playing, the power of the Lord came on him. 16 And he said, “Thus says the Lord, ‘I will make this wadi full of pools.’ 17 For thus says the Lord, ‘You shall see neither wind nor rain, but the wadi shall be filled with water, so that you shall drink, you, your cattle, and your animals.’ 18 This is only a trifle in the sight of the Lord, for he will also hand Moab over to you. 19 You shall conquer every fortified city and every choice city; every good tree you shall fell, all springs of water you shall stop up, and every good piece of land you shall ruin with stones.” 20 The next day, about the time of the morning offering, suddenly water began to flow from the direction of Edom, until the country was filled with water.

    21 When all the Moabites heard that the kings had come up to fight against them, all who were able to put on armor, from the youngest to the oldest, were called out and were drawn up at the frontier. 22 When they rose early in the morning, and the sun shone upon the water, the Moabites saw the water opposite them as red as blood. 23 They said, “This is blood; the kings must have fought together, and killed one another. Now then, Moab, to the spoil!” 24 But when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and attacked the Moabites, who fled before them; as they entered Moab they continued the attack. 25 The cities they overturned, and on every good piece of land everyone threw a stone, until it was covered; every spring of water they stopped up, and every good tree they felled. Only at Kir-hareseth did the stone walls remain, until the slingers surrounded and attacked it. 26 When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. 27 Then he took his firstborn son who was to succeed him, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And great wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land[/B]. (2Kings 3:1-27)


    I would like to hone in on the bolded: Mesha saw that the battle was going against him, and in a act of seeming desperation, entreated the Moabite deity Chemosh with a burnt offering of his first born son. After performing this sacrifice, "great wrath came upon Israel causing them to withdraw from the battlefield to their own land".

    My question: What is the source of this "great wrath" that came upon Israel? Various interpretations that I looked at seem unsatisfactory, such as:

    1) The Israelites were repulsed by the act of child sacrifice and left on their own volition. This doesn't cut mustard in my view as the Israelite's were a tribal people accustomed to war, and such a horrific act before their eyes would motivate the Israelite's all the more to extinguish such evil. This also fails to explain the "great wrath" that came upon the Israelite's. The text doesn't give any indication that the Israelite's left on their own volition because they were horrified and disgusted.

    2) The Moabites were emboldened by Mesha's sacrifice to Chemosh. This caused the Moabite army to exert wrath upon Israel, routing the Israelite's out of Moabite territory. I disagree with this interpretation as well because it seems to fly in the face of Elisha's promise. This interpretation basically says that the Moabites were delivered into the Israelite's hands just as Elisha said...but in the end they lost the battle. I don't think so.

    3) The Israelite's succumbed to superstitious fear after witnessing the sacrifice. This interpretation is plausible but fails to account for what the text actually says -- "great wrath came upon Israel". The text doesn't say: "great dread came upon them" (although I am not all that familiar with the semantic range of the Hebrew here).

    OK, so with that said, the only viable interpretation I can think of is in relation to verses 2-3. I actually think this is Yahweh's wrath against Israel due to their sin and idolatry. The pagan sacrifice kindled Yahweh's anger against his own people because they too were engaged in idolatrous acts, so despite letting the Israelite's win the battle, they were reminded that they cannot win their rebellious war against their God Yahweh. The only other option seems to be of the critical persuasion that sees this great wrath as the wrath of Chemosh -- a very real god exerting very real wrath -- implicitly acknowledged by the monolatrous narrator of 2Kings.

    How do you see this?
    Last edited by Scrawly; 07-07-2018, 08:54 PM.

  • #2
    I haven't looked at any scholarly commentaries or anything but the history books (Kings, Samuel, Chronicles) presuppose God as an agent in ultimate control of everything so it would be surprising to me if the author had any force other than the true God in mind there. (Think about the part where all the kings are listed, and the only factor considered in whether they were a good or bad king was how faithful they were to God).
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #3
      It may well be that even Israel's 'victory' was part of God's wrath - if you were getting tribute from somewhere, destroying their means of producing anything makes it rather difficult to collect tribute from them in the future. Not only were the Israelites idolatrous, they dragged God's faithful followers into the conflict with them. There is no mention of the Israelites glorifying God for the water He gave them, either.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        It may well be that even Israel's 'victory' was part of God's wrath - if you were getting tribute from somewhere, destroying their means of producing anything makes it rather difficult to collect tribute from them in the future. Not only were the Israelites idolatrous, they dragged God's faithful followers into the conflict with them. There is no mention of the Israelites glorifying God for the water He gave them, either.
        Right, it seems obvious that the idolatrous Israelite's and their king Jehoram, would be reminded by Yahweh that he is not pleased with them despite any apparent victories in the battlefield. I just don't quite see how the wrath that came upon Israel manifested itself. After witnessing the sacrifice, was it an internal realization that they too were idolaters, "seeing" the wrath of Yahweh upon them, causing them to retreat and perform introspection and repentance?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I haven't looked at any scholarly commentaries or anything but the history books (Kings, Samuel, Chronicles) presuppose God as an agent in ultimate control of everything so it would be surprising to me if the author had any force other than the true God in mind there. (Think about the part where all the kings are listed, and the only factor considered in whether they were a good or bad king was how faithful they were to God).
          I'm not in disagreement, but I would like to know how you interpret Judges 11:24, for example:

          Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that the Lord our God has conquered for our benefit?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            I'm not in disagreement, but I would like to know how you interpret Judges 11:24, for example:

            Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that the Lord our God has conquered for our benefit?
            It's an individual quotation from a person in a book with an overarching theme of reporting what was done without endorsing it, so I see no warrant from drawing any broader theological conclusions from it.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              2 Kings 3:27 KJV
              Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.


              It probably just means that the Moabites got all riled up over the sacrifice, and the Israelites became afraid. They had already beaten the Moabites all across the countryside. But they lost faith at the end, so they didn't completely finish the job.

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              • #8
                Look at Daniel 10 for a comparison. Chemosh was the national "god" of Moab much like the Prince of Persia in Daniel 10. (It took Michael the Arch Angel to get the messenger free, but he had to hurry back to help Michael) The sacrifice of the son to Chemosh somehow empowered the Moabites to fight with great fury. Wrath does not have to be God derived...only divine wrath would be so. Since the Moabites had as their chief god an evil spirit, bent on the destruction of God's people, the sacrifice of the kings son to him may have unleashed demonic forces to inhabit the soldiers of Moab giving them temporary zeal and strength. The Bible is pretty clear that the ANE writers of the O.T. believed that God was the only God, but that he still reigned with a heavenly Council of created angelic beings sometimes referred to gods (with a little g). (See 1 Kings 22:20; Job 1:6; 2:1; Ps. 82:1; 89:7)
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  It's an individual quotation from a person in a book with an overarching theme of reporting what was done without endorsing it, so I see no warrant from drawing any broader theological conclusions from it.
                  I think the ANE writers of the O.T. believed that chemosh did indeed exist. They would have believed he was created by Yahweh as one of his angels and joined the rebellion with Satan, They are often referred to as gods (or sons of God if not a part of the rebellion) and that he warred against Yahweh as an evil agent. This is pretty apparent in Scripture...it's just it's been systematically downplayed more and more. The ANE of the whole area including Israelites saw the world much differently than we do. The Israelites saw Satan and his evil cohorts as sea monsters Leviathan, Rahab, Behomoth and the waters were considered chaotic or even hostile/evil forces that also constantly battled Yahweh. However, they always believed and wrote that Yahweh was the Most powerful of all beings. Able to defeat all these forces of evil.

                  I just did a 6 month in-depth study on the Spiritual Warfare View of the Bible. It's part of the answer to the Problem of Evil IMO.

                  Recommend highly: "God At War: The Bible and Spiritual Conflict" by Gregory A. Boyd (Ph.d). IMHO, it's very well researched and documented.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    I think the ANE writers of the O.T. believed that chemosh did indeed exist. They would have believed he was created by Yahweh as one of his angels and joined the rebellion with Satan, They are often referred to as gods (or sons of God if not a part of the rebellion) and that he warred against Yahweh as an evil agent. This is pretty apparent in Scripture...it's just it's been systematically downplayed more and more. The ANE of the whole area including Israelites saw the world much differently than we do. The Israelites saw Satan and his evil cohorts as sea monsters Leviathan, Rahab, Behomoth and the waters were considered chaotic or even hostile/evil forces that also constantly battled Yahweh. However, they always believed and wrote that Yahweh was the Most powerful of all beings. Able to defeat all these forces of evil.

                    I just did a 6 month in-depth study on the Spiritual Warfare View of the Bible. It's part of the answer to the Problem of Evil IMO.

                    Recommend highly: "God At War: The Bible and Spiritual Conflict" by Gregory A. Boyd (Ph.d). IMHO, it's very well researched and documented.
                    I think way too many people downplay the effect demons, principalities etc. have over the world. Now, there are some that over estimate it, like some saying they do little stuff like hide their car keys and such, but I haven't run into many of those.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      I think way too many people downplay the effect demons, principalities etc. have over the world. Now, there are some that over estimate it, like some saying they do little stuff like hide their car keys and such, but I haven't run into many of those.
                      I agree with you that Satan and his demons don't get enough credit for the evils of the world! Jesus even acknowledged Satan as the "prince" of this world. When tempted by Satan, Jesus never contested Satan's authority to offer him the "kingdoms of earth". I do believe that Jesus became Lord of the earth now though through the incarnation, death and resurrection. Satan is bound (at least to some degree) now by Jesus Christ. If you look at the sheer number of people possessed and oppressed in the Gospels, and extrapolate that over the whole earth it would seem that demonic activity is much less than back in that time. IMHO that is...
                      Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-11-2018, 11:11 AM.
                      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That's a great point. Chemosh was a demon. Elisha's prophecy came true as he stated (2Kings. 3:19), and yet Israel was punished for their sin (2Kings 3:1-3) by experiencing demonic wrath, permitted by Yahweh (cf. 1Kings 22:21-23).

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                        • #13
                          It doesn't say that any wrath was demonic — or divine, either. The Moabites were incited. Israel lost faith, and fled prematurely. That is the most natural reading of the text.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            It doesn't say that any wrath was demonic — or divine, either. The Moabites were incited. Israel lost faith, and fled prematurely. That is the most natural reading of the text.
                            The most natural reading of the text is that the sacrifice played a causal role in the "great wrath" being visited on the Israelites. Since they weren't the ones doing such an evil form of sacrifice, it makes little sense to say it was from God IMO.

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                            • #15
                              It doesn't say that there was any wrath "visited" upon anyone. It says:

                              2 Kings 3:27
                              Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

                              Comment

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