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Thread: Wrath of Chemosh(?)

  1. #11
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    I think way too many people downplay the effect demons, principalities etc. have over the world. Now, there are some that over estimate it, like some saying they do little stuff like hide their car keys and such, but I haven't run into many of those.
    I agree with you that Satan and his demons don't get enough credit for the evils of the world! Jesus even acknowledged Satan as the "prince" of this world. When tempted by Satan, Jesus never contested Satan's authority to offer him the "kingdoms of earth". I do believe that Jesus became Lord of the earth now though through the incarnation, death and resurrection. Satan is bound (at least to some degree) now by Jesus Christ. If you look at the sheer number of people possessed and oppressed in the Gospels, and extrapolate that over the whole earth it would seem that demonic activity is much less than back in that time. IMHO that is...
    Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-11-2018 at 04:11 PM.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    That's a great point. Chemosh was a demon. Elisha's prophecy came true as he stated (2Kings. 3:19), and yet Israel was punished for their sin (2Kings 3:1-3) by experiencing demonic wrath, permitted by Yahweh (cf. 1Kings 22:21-23).

  3. #13
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    It doesn't say that any wrath was demonic — or divine, either. The Moabites were incited. Israel lost faith, and fled prematurely. That is the most natural reading of the text.

  4. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    It doesn't say that any wrath was demonic — or divine, either. The Moabites were incited. Israel lost faith, and fled prematurely. That is the most natural reading of the text.
    The most natural reading of the text is that the sacrifice played a causal role in the "great wrath" being visited on the Israelites. Since they weren't the ones doing such an evil form of sacrifice, it makes little sense to say it was from God IMO.

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    It doesn't say that there was any wrath "visited" upon anyone. It says:

    2 Kings 3:27
    Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

  7. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Wrath upon you in every case I can find is always from God. This wrath wasn't from God, it was from demonic forces. The Moabites getting angry at Israel for their own King sacrificing his son on the wall makes no sense.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Israel's attack led to the death of their prince — not to mention the destruction of their entire countryside. Of course it makes sense that the Moabites would be angry.

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    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Israel's attack led to the death of their prince — not to mention the destruction of their entire countryside. Of course it makes sense that the Moabites would be angry.
    The death of their prince by the leader of their nation? Why would they get mad at the Israelites for that? Why wouldn't they be mad at the King? And why then after the sacrifice?
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    It doesn't say that there was any wrath "visited" upon anyone. It says:

    2 Kings 3:27
    Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
    I know the word "visited" isn't in the passage, which is why I didn't put quotes around that word. I was using it to describe the situation that is in the passage.

  13. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Wrath upon you in every case I can find is always from God. This wrath wasn't from God, it was from demonic forces. The Moabites getting angry at Israel for their own King sacrificing his son on the wall makes no sense.
    I see nothing in the text, at any level, to justify reference to “demonic forces”. The use of language like “there was great wrath” rather than “X was wrathful” looks to me like a roundabout way of saying “JHWH was angry”. The verse echoes the curse upon the site of Jericho in Joshua 6:

    Joshua 6:26
    At that time Joshua invoked this solemn oath: “Cursed before the LORD is the man who rises up and rebuilds this city, Jericho; at the cost of his firstborn he will lay its foundations; at the cost of his youngest he will set up its gates.”

    1 Kings 16.34:
    In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundations with the loss of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates with the loss of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which He spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.



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