Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 137

Thread: And the Winner is...

  1. #91
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In my house.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    12,696
    Amen (Given)
    6034
    Amen (Received)
    4616
    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Oh, this again. You've posted this repeatedly, and I have repeatedly shown how it's a bad argument. But sure, let's go through it again.

    I won't include all the quotes because the issue with them is all the same: How do quotes from people centuries ago mean anything in regards to definitions? As I've pointed out, words shift meaning, and the word "democracy" has a more expansive meaning now than it does then. These quotes of yours, and therefore your entire post, mean absolutely nothing in regards to the modern meanings of those words. You might as well argue that Donald Duck is homosexual because he's referred to as "gay" in The Three Caballeros (released when the word simply meant "happy").

    Your post may be have merit as an argument as to why we have elected officials rather than deciding everything via referendum, but that is a completely separate topic than what a particular word means.

    All he did was repeat the claim that I had already refuted. If my point is "pulling out quotes from centuries ago doesn't mean anything because of definition shift" then pulling out more quotes from centuries ago doesn't mean anything.

    Every modern dictionary I have consulted states that democracies can, in fact, use representation.

    Let's consult Merriam Webster, for example. According to it, democracy is:
    "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections"

    And a republic is:
    "a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law"
    (there are other definitions for both provided, but these are the ones relevant to our interests)

    Based on these definitions, the relationship of "republic" and "democracy" (in their modern definitions) is that a republic is a kind of democracy. Democracy includes government directly by the people or indirectly through their representatives. A republic is only the variety that is done via representatives. One will find this relation to be the same if one examines how other dictionaries define the two terms. Though in terms of application in the real world, they are essentially synonyms because as far as I know, every democracy in the world is a republic.

    Of course, someone may ask what the proper term would be for the "original" definition of democracy, i.e. the idea of everything being decided directly by the people by majority. Even if the term democracy is no longer that narrow, there's still reason to want a way to refer to such an idea. "Direct democracy" is likely the best term to describe that.
    Democracy: government by the people
    Republic: government by representation


    Changing the definitions to fit modern governmental forms just over complicates things. Those definitions may work for common speech but they are not used in technical discussion of the governmental forms - poli sci spends endless hours defining its terms over and over again and no one bothers redefining the basics. It's a democratic republic - - a hybrid of a democracy and a republic.

    Your argument boils down to 'well, it's what common folks call a democracy' - which is fine, but it is not a technical argument and is an extremely poor understanding of the forms involved.

  2. Amen Cow Poke, rogue06 amen'd this post.
  3. #92
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    44,534
    Amen (Given)
    9589
    Amen (Received)
    21756
    OK, time for an oldie but a goodie.....

    ...to the REPUBLIC for which it stands....


    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  4. #93
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    42,532
    Amen (Given)
    929
    Amen (Received)
    16114
    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Democracy: government by the people
    Republic: government by representation


    Changing the definitions to fit modern governmental forms just over complicates things. Those definitions may work for common speech but they are not used in technical discussion of the governmental forms - poli sci spends endless hours defining its terms over and over again and no one bothers redefining the basics. It's a democratic republic - - a hybrid of a democracy and a republic.

    Your argument boils down to 'well, it's what common folks call a democracy' - which is fine, but it is not a technical argument and is an extremely poor understanding of the forms involved.
    Yup, it amounts to declaring it's how many misunderstand it so that means it's the same.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  5. #94
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,381
    Amen (Given)
    180
    Amen (Received)
    543
    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Those definitions may work for common speech but they are not used in technical discussion of the governmental forms - poli sci spends endless hours defining its terms over and over again and no one bothers redefining the basics.
    It is true that words can have different meanings based on their context, with the "technical" definitions being different than the more common definitions. There are a few problems, however. The first is that what was occurring was common speech, not "technical discussion of the governmental forms."

    The second is that a term being used in a more restrictive way in technical discussion does not mean a more broad definition, or even a wholly different definition, is therefore incorrect. I've cited the definition for democracy from Merriam-Webster, but I did only cite one of them. Here's the full list:
    "1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
    b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
    2 : a political unit that has a democratic government
    3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.
    from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy óC. M. Roberts
    4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
    5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges"

    1a seems to be the more "technical" definition you are identifying, whereas 1b is the more common definition. Now, you may claim the United States does not qualify under definition 1a (it certainly doesn't under "rule of the majority"), but the fact is it does qualify under 1b. Unless someone is clearly using definition 1a rather than definition 1b, referring to the United States as a democracy is not a mistake, and can generally be inferred by context to mean definition 1b.

    An example of erroneously referring to the United States as a democracy would be if someone were to try to argue against some supreme court decision on the basis of "most people disagree with that decision, so under democracy, the will of the majority should prevail!" In such a case, they are obviously using 1a, and it is absolutely fine to correct them on the fact that the United States does not qualify as a democracy under that definition. However, generally speaking someone will be using definition 1b, and there is therefore no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    OK, time for an oldie but a goodie.....

    ...to the REPUBLIC for which it stands....
    Is this an attempt to appeal to the pledge of allegiance in the argument of "the pledge of allegiance says republic, that means the US isn't a democracy"? There are two major issues with that. First, that simply says it's a republic, not that it's not a democracy, when it can qualify as both. Second, if the guy who wrote the pledge of allegiance was so brilliant in regards to word meanings that we must therefore accept his declaration, then we must accept the United States is a democracy as well, as he referred to it as such elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Yup, it amounts to declaring it's how many misunderstand it so that means it's the same.
    It's not a misunderstanding, it's what the word means, and what it's meant for a long time despite your claims. The United States being considered to be a democracy goes back at least into the 19th century. Indeed, John Quincy Adams referred to it as such in his inaugural address (well, technically he referred to the government as such but that's splitting hairs). True, he said it was a "confederated representative democracy" but something being a type of democracy still means it's a democracy.

    Again, not all words in the present have the same definitions or connotations as they did in the past, and rigidly clinging to a particular definition simply on the basis of "well, look at these quotes from people several centuries ago" is a poor argument. Unless you're going to insist we must use "awful" to mean awe-inspiring, must use "nice" to mean foolish, and must use "egregious" to mean good, and can never use "sex" to refer to the act of intercourse and it can only be used to refer to whether someone is male or female? If not, your stance is inconsistent.

  6. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  7. #95
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In my house.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    12,696
    Amen (Given)
    6034
    Amen (Received)
    4616
    When you (general) are discussing the actual form, you are discussing the technical form. You personally may be discussing the common slang but the rest of us are discussing the actual form of US government.

    It's a democratic republic, same as it's always been. You can argue all you like - but you're just plain wrong.


    And no, Webster doesn't prove you right...

  8. #96
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Wayne Township, PA
    Faith
    Full Gospel Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,225
    Amen (Given)
    591
    Amen (Received)
    411
    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    ...


    And no, Webster doesn't prove you right...
    Sometimes a dictionary is the worst place to go to find out what a word means.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  9. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  10. #97
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    44,534
    Amen (Given)
    9589
    Amen (Received)
    21756
    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Sometimes a dictionary is the worst place to go to find out what a word means.
    poop


    define THAT

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  11. #98
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    42,532
    Amen (Given)
    929
    Amen (Received)
    16114
    Just because it's popular to call a boat a ship does not magically turn a boat into a ship.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  12. Amen RumTumTugger, One Bad Pig, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  13. #99
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,381
    Amen (Given)
    180
    Amen (Received)
    543
    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    When you (general) are discussing the actual form, you are discussing the technical form. You personally may be discussing the common slang but the rest of us are discussing the actual form of US government.
    The first post that started up the hubbub was JimL declaring that our democracy was in jeopardy (a claim I find silly, but that is besides the point). The form of the government was not really important to his point, just whether or not the government was in jeopardy. His usage of "democracy" was clearly in reference to the more general definition of democracy, i.e. the one that isn't "technical" by your definition (this would be 1b in the definitions I cited). Then someone came along and said he used the term wrong and that the US wasn't a democracy, apparently insisting on the "technical" definition (1a), which prompted my response criticizing that. That caused this discussion. Trying to retcon this as a "technical" discussion from the start is ignoring how it actually came about.

    And no, Webster doesn't prove you right...
    If it were just one dictionary, I might agree. But every single other dictionary I have consulted gives the same definitions.

    To be fair, sometimes a dictionary may not be "up to date" with a recent word shift, often due to some new slang being introduced. But the claim here is not saying a dictionary is wrong because it missed a new or shifted definition, so that is inapplicable.

    I suppose you could also try to argue in favor of descriptivist meaning over prescriptivist, but that's self-refuting whenever attempting to argue against common usage of a word, as descriptivist is to have a word's meanings be whatever they are generally used as.
    Last edited by Terraceth; 07-12-2018 at 08:49 PM.

  14. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  15. #100
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In my house.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    12,696
    Amen (Given)
    6034
    Amen (Received)
    4616
    How can you discuss a form being in jeopardy without actually understanding the form?

    Jim's claim, I agree, was silly. The response to it was also silly - it only kinda mattered at that point. But you deciding to jump in with that 'it's really a democracy' nonsense when it was pretty obviously just Jim, CP and Rogue having a dog fight (again) was the dumbest part of all. You changed a hiccup into a full on derail.

    And you're still wrong. It's still a democratic republic, no matter how lazy people are discussing it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •