Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

Answering Vox Day on the Trinity

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Answering Vox Day on the Trinity

    Is Matthew 24:36 a defeater?

    Link

    -----

    Does Matthew 24:36 refute the Trinity? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    A reader sent me this piece from Vox Day wanting to get my input on it. Vox is a smart guy and has written going after the new atheists, though it was a book I never got around to reading. Yet here, the argument really isn't the best. It's one of the common arguments used against the Trinity.

    Go to Matthew 24:36 and Jesus doesn't know the day or the hour of His second coming. (My Preterist self wants to be clear it's not about His return. That's something else.) Not only do we have to explain the Son, but what about the Holy Spirit. Why isn't He listed?

    There are two options here. The Son is a simple case I think. The Son took on a sort of kenotic emptying as in Philippians 2. This was not an emptying of His deity. It was an emptying I think of the prerogative to use His divine attributes apart from His mission. It wasn't necessary that the Son know the time of the events. All He had to say was it would be within this generation.

    This has been the traditional understanding for quite some time and let me state that to argue against the Trinity is to argue against the wisdom of the major traditions of Christianity for thousands of years. Of course, there are some passages that are hard to understand, but there are far far more that are harder to understand otherwise. I don't expect Vox to go and do a full look at every passage. It's appropriate to bring up one concern at times.

    Yet this doesn't answer about the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't the Holy Spirit know the date of the second coming? For this, there are two answers.

    The first is that the Spirit submits to the Father and to the Son so there could be some limitations that the Spirit takes on as well when the Son goes on His mission. This isn't because of the Spirit taking on humanity, but the Spirit working in tandem with the Son in the same kind of way. The Spirit would not be revealed this.

    Another is to look at a passage like 1 Cor. 2:11. No one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. This would mean that the Holy Spirit would be included in the identity of the Father. We could also ask if God the Father would be ignorant of something since in Rev. 19 the Son of Man comes riding a white horse with a name no one knows save Jesus Himself.

    Vox would not likely have a problem with this since he does not accept divine omniscience. I do. Still, while it might not be that either of my interpretations can be proven to be the right one, they are both I think viable interpretations of the text and better in line with what has been taught throughout the church. If someone wants to go against a doctrine all three branches of Christianity agree on, I think the burden is highly on them.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    The solution is really a simple one. The problem is not divine omniscience. Rather it is that the eternal Son is not the same person as His Father and would be omniscient even of the deliberate limitations of His incarnation, and be fully committed to His Father's will prior to creation which He has full authority (John 1:1-3, 9-10; Hebrews1:3). Acts 1:7.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment

    Related Threads

    Collapse

    Topics Statistics Last Post
    Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
    14 responses
    75 views
    1 like
    Last Post rogue06
    by rogue06
     
    Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
    6 responses
    61 views
    0 likes
    Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
    Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
    1 response
    23 views
    0 likes
    Last Post rogue06
    by rogue06
     
    Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
    0 responses
    22 views
    2 likes
    Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
    Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
    5 responses
    50 views
    0 likes
    Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
    Working...
    X