Non-Calvinists think that one of the implications of Calvinism is that God created certain people for the purpose of sending them to hell. Calvinists say that people go to hell because they deserve it and that if there were no sin, then no one would go to hell. Non-Calvinists say that Calvinism teaches that God made a plan that people would be sinners. Non-Calvinists think that if God made a plan that people would be sinners, then God is doing something morally reprehensible. How would you respond to this? If God ordains that people would sin or that God made a plan that people would be sinners, then how did God carry out this plan so that people would be responsible for their sin? Non-Calvinists think that if God ordains or predetermines everything, then people cannot be responsible for their sin.
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Implications of Calvinism
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It seems every post you start poses questions with "how would you respond to this" but we never see what you have to say. What do you think about Calvinism?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostNon-Calvinists think that one of the implications of Calvinism is that God created certain people for the purpose of sending them to hell. Calvinists say that people go to hell because they deserve it and that if there were no sin, then no one would go to hell. Non-Calvinists say that Calvinism teaches that God made a plan that people would be sinners. Non-Calvinists think that if God made a plan that people would be sinners, then God is doing something morally reprehensible. How would you respond to this? If God ordains that people would sin or that God made a plan that people would be sinners, then how did God carry out this plan so that people would be responsible for their sin? Non-Calvinists think that if God ordains or predetermines everything, then people cannot be responsible for their sin.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Since I am not God's equal I am not competent to judge Him. If you feel you are competent to judge God you are not only wrong, but sin in action.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostSince I am not God's equal I am not competent to judge Him. If you feel you are competent to judge God you are not only wrong, but sin in action.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIt seems every post you start poses questions with "how would you respond to this" but we never see what you have to say. What do you think about Calvinism?
Would this be a good answer to the objection raised by non-Calvinists?
God ordains all things, made a plan to display all of His attributes such as His love to sinners and His wrath to those who reject Him, and also made a plan to choose certain people for salvation and pass by others. The consequence of God's plan is that some people would go to hell. Sending people to hell is not God's ultimate aim or something He takes delight in.
God can ordain sinful actions in such a way that people can be held morally accountable to them. The way that God causes things is not the same as the way that creatures or inanimate objects cause things.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI think the bolded part is imprecise. My understanding is that the Total Depravity petal of the Calvinist TULIP is based on the "inherited guilt" version of Original Sin. According to that, everyone "deserves" damnation irrespective of their own sins, because all share in the guilt of the supposed "federal head," Adam.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostI agree with Calvinism. I was seeing how different people on this DB would respond to the objection raised by non-Calvinists.
Would this be a good answer to the objection raised by non-Calvinists?
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostIt is true that Adam is our representative and that human beings counted as guilty for Adam's sin. ...Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostSo... Your view is that any who find the Calvinist concept of God to be wrong are sinning?Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Never mind. Another day maybe.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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I used to think that Arminians are sometimes accused of "caricaturing" Calvinism when we make claims like:
*Calvinism teaches that God SPECIFICALLY WILLS and TAKES DELIGHT IN every evil event in history as well as each person who will suffer eternally in hell.
*Calvinism teaches that God ordains every single evil thing that people do IN SUCH A WAY that God is all-holy for ordaining these evil acts while the people who do the evil acts God ordained them to do are sinful for doing them.
*Calvinism teaches that God has a “sovereign will” that ordains and delights in evil and a “moral will” that is revolted by the evil his “sovereign will” ordains. This is why I have claimed that God’s “moral will” must hate God’s “sovereign will” if Calvinism is in fact true.
That is until I saw this article about a sermon John Piper gave at a weekend seminar in Minneapolis which pretty much says all the above is believed by at least some Calvinists."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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