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Thread: Implications of Calvinism

  1. #51
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah
    My point is that judging God is visible active sin.
    Rationally examining Calvinism, its assumptions, whether they are in tension, what they imply, whether that makes sense, etc... is not to judge God. We know some things of God by the nature of His being. Such as Him being the source of all goodness. And this has implications. I don't know of any theological worldview without tensions or paradoxes, it seems to many of us that Calvinists want to say at the same time that animals don't sin, because they lack free will, that humans have free will, and yet also at the same time that our 'free wills' are completely ordained by God.

    This among other things has the implication, which is inescapable, that God creates some people so that they can go to Hell for His own glory.

    That's not something I think that makes sense, given the nature of Goodness itself, or Scripture which clearly teaches that God desires that no one goes to Hell, but that they repent and turn around.

    Having a discussion about any of that, does not qualify as actively sinning Jedidiah. To say that sounds more like a preacher who wants to shut down discussion.

  2. Amen seer, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  3. #52
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Chapter and verse, please?

    But let's remember that the ox that gored was to be put to death, and its flesh not eaten (Ex. 21:28). Responsibility, without free will.

    "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal." (Gen. 9:5)

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    I donít see how the behaviour of the ox illustrates the behaviour of God and men. And how is Gen. 9.5, which forbids deliberate homicide, applicable to a goring ox ?

    Unless, of course, one holds that men & oxen are, for moral purposes, and before God, the same kind of entity. Does anyone believe that though ? My cat has scratched me a few times, drawing blood - does that mean she has to be ďput to deathĒ ? Over my dead body !

    I am not ridiculing the argument, but trying to see how far it is to be taken.

  4. #53
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Rationally examining Calvinism, its assumptions, whether they are in tension, what they imply, whether that makes sense, etc... is not to judge God. We know some things of God by the nature of His being. Such as Him being the source of all goodness. And this has implications. I don't know of any theological worldview without tensions or paradoxes, it seems to many of us that Calvinists want to say at the same time that animals don't sin, because they lack free will, that humans have free will, and yet also at the same time that our 'free wills' are completely ordained by God.

    This among other things has the implication, which is inescapable, that God creates some people so that they can go to Hell for His own glory.

    That's not something I think that makes sense, given the nature of Goodness itself, or Scripture which clearly teaches that God desires that no one goes to Hell, but that they repent and turn around.

    Having a discussion about any of that, does not qualify as actively sinning Jedidiah. To say that sounds more like a preacher who wants to shut down discussion.
    I agree that a critical examination of Calvinism is quite acceptable. Any theology should be subject to question and examination. I was referring to what appeared to me to be implications that God was wrong if Calvinism is accurate. If no one intended such an implication my post was not worthy of response.

    When, by the way, you are responding to a post you should include the link to the post you responded to rather than a separate quote. You took the longer way to respond. Since it was a long time past when I posted, I almost just ignored your response.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  5. #54
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I agree that a critical examination of Calvinism is quite acceptable. Any theology should be subject to question and examination. I was referring to what appeared to me to be implications that God was wrong if Calvinism is accurate. If no one intended such an implication my post was not worthy of response.

    ...
    It's possible I suggested something along those lines. I'm lazy and headachy, and my connection is sluggish, so I'm not going to go back and look.

    Instead, I'll just say that I generally agree with Roger Olson here. (And FWIW, I also do not recall whether I already posted that link earlier in the thread. Sorry.)
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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  6. #55
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    It's possible I suggested something along those lines. I'm lazy and headachy, and my connection is sluggish, so I'm not going to go back and look.

    Instead, I'll just say that I generally agree with Roger Olson here. (And FWIW, I also do not recall whether I already posted that link earlier in the thread. Sorry.)
    No ;problem. As long as you do not hold to such a judgement of God I have no disagreement with your post.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  7. #56
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    It's possible I suggested something along those lines. I'm lazy and headachy, and my connection is sluggish, so I'm not going to go back and look.

    Instead, I'll just say that I generally agree with Roger Olson here. (And FWIW, I also do not recall whether I already posted that link earlier in the thread. Sorry.)
    Your link seems to be broken.

  8. #57
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    As I mentioned earlier, I'm not particularly emotionally bothered by the implications of Calvinism. They don't make a lot of sense to me within the context of Christianity, but it's not something I freak out over like many Arminians seem to. But for those who do want to pursue that line of reasoning, I think it would be perfectly reverent to say something like "Calvinism is inconsistent with the character of God as revealed in the Bible".
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  9. #58
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Your link seems to be broken.
    It's working fine for me.

    Here are a few prime quotes to throw gas on the fire:

    "I have openly admitted here that consistent Calvinism turns God into a monster and makes it difficult to tell the difference between God and the devil,..."

    "I have said that if it were revealed to me in a way I could not doubt that the God of consistent, five point Calvinism is the one true God over all, the maker of heaven and earth, I would not worship him because I would not think him worthy of worship. What makes God worthy of worship is Godís perfect goodness combined with his greatness. God must be both great and good to be worthy of worship."

    "When I say that Calvinism makes God monstrous and makes it difficult to tell the difference between God and the devil I am talking about from my perspectiveónot what all Calvinists actually believe. I am talking about the logical implications of Calvinism."
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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  10. #59
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    The Roger Olson link works fine for me.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  11. #60
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    It's working fine for me.

    Here are a few prime quotes to throw gas on the fire:

    "I have openly admitted here that consistent Calvinism turns God into a monster and makes it difficult to tell the difference between God and the devil,..."

    "I have said that if it were revealed to me in a way I could not doubt that the God of consistent, five point Calvinism is the one true God over all, the maker of heaven and earth, I would not worship him because I would not think him worthy of worship. What makes God worthy of worship is Godís perfect goodness combined with his greatness. God must be both great and good to be worthy of worship."

    "When I say that Calvinism makes God monstrous and makes it difficult to tell the difference between God and the devil I am talking about from my perspectiveónot what all Calvinists actually believe. I am talking about the logical implications of Calvinism."
    Weird, it's working now but earlier it just said "This page either doesn't exist or was moved".

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