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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Implications of Calvinism
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I'm in complete agreement with you here!
Ummm...what? If you think St. Paul is resorting to bluster and browbeating and thereby proceeding fallaciously, then you do not understand the argument he is making. Romans 9 isn't about deterministic individual salvation...that's not the point of the chapter. (Or Ch. 10 & 11 which are a continuation of the argument he IS making)
You are correct that if Romans 9 is read with a deterministic view of salvation that Paul is being fallacious, but that is never the thrust of the argument....but it shouldn't be read that way because that's not the issue being addressed. The issue Paul is addressing is whether or not . That is to say, simply on the basis of their faithanything"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Calvinists must go through great contortions to make sense of 2 Peter 3:9 IMO. John Piper at least attempts to honestly articulate the full implications of his view (as noted above)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostCalvinists must go through great contortions to make sense of 2 Peter 3:9 IMO. John Piper at least attempts to honestly articulate the full implications of his view (as noted above)."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Romans 5:18 which says, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." When Adam sinned, everyone was counted as condemned. How can this be? It can be explained in this way: Adam is our representative. God saw us in Adam. When Adam sinned, it was like God saw us sinning along with Adam.
Southerners living in 2018 don't have the same relationship with the people living during the American Civil War as Adam has with us.
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To briefly add: I don't have any emotional objections to Calvinism. (Being an annihilationist, the "sting" of people spending eternity in hell without any opportunity to avoid it is removed.) I simply don't find it to be an accurate model of Scripture."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostRomans 5:18 which says, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." When Adam sinned, everyone was counted as condemned. How can this be? It can be explained in this way: Adam is our representative. God saw us in Adam. When Adam sinned, it was like God saw us sinning along with Adam.
Southerners living in 2018 don't have the same relationship with the people living during the American Civil War as Adam has with us.
is
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostRomans 5:18 which says, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." When Adam sinned, everyone was counted as condemned. How can this be? It can be explained in this way: Adam is our representative. God saw us in Adam. When Adam sinned, it was like God saw us sinning along with Adam.
Southerners living in 2018 don't have the same relationship with the people living during the American Civil War as Adam has with us.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostIt is one thing for Adam to represent us - but a very different matter, for the sin of Adam to be regarded as being chargeable to us as though we had in person committed it.
is
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostTo briefly add: I don't have any emotional objections to Calvinism. (Being an annihilationist, the "sting" of people spending eternity in hell without any opportunity to avoid it is removed.) I simply don't find it to be an accurate model of Scripture.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostThe doctrine of inherited guilt consists of more than just the fact that we are descendants of Adam and that Adam is our representative. The doctrine also consists of the idea that God thought of us all as having sinned when Adam sinned. God does not necessarily think that the Southerners who descended from the Southerners of 1861 to 1865 sinned when the Southerners of 1861 to 1865 sinned.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 07-25-2018, 02:19 AM.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostMy main issue with Calvinism is increasingly that it removes all responsibility from the believer for his/her state. Where you end up depends entirely on God, and your inputs don't matter; what you do and what you believe are immaterial. I find that to be fundamentally incompatible with Scripture.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostThat last sentence re-states the problem. If inherited guilt is theologically real in the one case, why not in the other ? And if not in the latter, why in the former ? ... The Reformed understanding of OS, looks unjust.
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people [because they sinned, because of a sin nature, cf. Rom. 5:12], so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostMy main issue with Calvinism is increasingly that it removes all responsibility from the believer for his/her state. Where you end up depends entirely on God, and your inputs don't matter; what you do and what you believe are immaterial. I find that to be fundamentally incompatible with Scripture."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostCalvinists should (and most, I think, do) hold divine sovereignty and human responsibility in tension, believing the bible teaches both. It should be regarded as an apparent contradiction (from our finite pov) and not an ultimate contradiction; acknowledging God's often higher, unsearchable, and inscrutable ways.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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