Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Implications of Calvinism
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIf totally depraved humans are incapable of approaching God, and God's grace is irresistible, there is no room whatsoever for human responsibility. One CANNOT be responsible for what one cannot control.
But let's remember that the ox that gored was to be put to death, and its flesh not eaten (Ex. 21:28). Responsibility, without free will.
"And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal." (Gen. 9:5)
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostCalvinists could hold that, but that very holding is in tension with Calvinism. If totally depraved humans are incapable of approaching God, and God's grace is irresistible, there is no room whatsoever for human responsibility. One CANNOT be responsible for what one cannot control.Originally posted by Scrawly View PostCalvinists highlight that sinners are incapable of approaching God, because they choose not to. They defiantly reject God's call for them to repent. Their freewill is naturally bent to choose sin over God, thereby incurring guilt and responsibility for their sin. We are all by nature children of wrath. God doesn't owe anyone salvation. He would be perfectly just if he sentenced the entire human race to hell. However, in his great mercy, he chose some to receive salvation through Jesus the Christ by faith.
If their "freewill" is damaged such that they will *always* choose sin and reject God, isn't the term "freewill" rather disingenuous?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostWell which is it? Are they "incapable," or is it a matter of what they "choose"? Aren't "ability" and "choice" categorically different?
If their "freewill" is damaged such that they will *always* choose sin and reject God, isn't the term "freewill" rather disingenuous?
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostThey are choosing based on what their nature desires. Ultimately, the unregenerate will choose alienation from Christ and the gospel.
Their freewill is in bondage to their desire. God is not actively causing them to sin, they do that of their own volition.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostChapter and verse, please?
But let's remember that the ox that gored was to be put to death, and its flesh not eaten (Ex. 21:28). Responsibility, without free will.
"And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal." (Gen. 9:5)
Blessings,
LeeEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
Comment
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOxen are people, now?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostChapter and verse, please?
But let's remember that the ox that gored was to be put to death, and its flesh not eaten (Ex. 21:28). Responsibility, without free will.
"And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal." (Gen. 9:5)
Blessings,
Lee"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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I would say the killing of an ox who gored somebody is a consequence and not responsibility per se as it is a safety measure. Consider how Leviticus mandates the death of an animal involved in bestiality. The animal probably didn't decide to do it on its own. But for ritual purity reasons, the animal still had to go."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou realize you didn't actually address NorrinRadd's points, yes?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostHow does that prove responsibility without free will?
You must not be a country boy...
Originally posted by King's GambitI would say the killing of an ox who gored somebody is a consequence and not responsibility per se as it is a safety measure.
"And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal." (Gen. 9:5)
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
Comment
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The freewill of an ox is limited by its nature. Likewise, the freewill of a human being is limited by their nature. Can an ox will itself to be anything other than an ox? No. Can human beings will themselves to become anything other than a sinner made in God's image? No. Does that absolve said sinners of their sinful choices? No.
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostOriginally posted by NorrinRadd View PostWell which is it? Are they "incapable," or is it a matter of what they "choose"? Aren't "ability" and "choice" categorically different?
If their "freewill" is damaged such that they will *always* choose sin and reject God, isn't the term "freewill" rather disingenuous?
And as above, their (fake) freewill is in bondage to their desires, which in turn are in bondage to their "natures." So they are slaves being punished for doing what their masters force them to do.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostSo choice is constrained by nature.
How does "nature" differ from "ability"?
It sounds to me as though God punishes people for making choices they are unable to NOT make.
In what way does that even remotely resemble "justice"?
So "freewill" is indeed disengenuous. For those listeners in Rio Linda, that means "lie."
And as above, their (fake) freewill is in bondage to their desires, which in turn are in bondage to their "natures."
So they are slaves being punished for doing what their masters force them to do.
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