Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

Book Plunge: The Orthodox Way

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Book Plunge: The Orthodox Way

    What makes The Orthodox Way Orthodox?

    Link.

    ----

    What do I think of Bishop Kallistos Ware's book published by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    My wife has been looking into the Eastern Orthodox Church. While at the church once, I asked the priest if he had any book in the church library he would recommend to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy. He recommended I get The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware.

    So I went and got it. I came home and went through it over the next few days. I have to say in many ways I was....disappointed. I was expecting to find a lot that set apart the Orthodox as unique in comparison to Protestants and Catholics. I really didn't. I found a whole lot of theology, but it was theology I could say for the most part I agreed with.

    Something that I think honestly happens with many people, not all but many, is they move from a Protestantism that is shallow and find an Orthodoxy that is deeper, without realizing that much of the theology is still a theology that is common to all traditions. It is rooted in Scripture and in natural theology. For me, at a book study with men of the Orthodox Church Wednesday night, I found myself talking about how with most people, I will keep my talk simple about God, but when I'm with my theological friends, I will talk about simplicity, impassibility, and the hypostatic union. I don't think many there knew what I was talking about either. One said so explicitly and no one disagreed. Could it be the problem is more how deep someone is willing to go and this is a problem in all traditions? If we acknowledge it's the same God in all traditions, no one can really lay claim to a deeper theology.

    I had hoped to find more on history and how the Orthodox came to be, but that was lacking. Like I said, most of the theology I found no problem with. Some things I would have phrased differently. Ware does rely on the Fathers a lot more than I would as well.

    I would have also liked to have seen more on some of my bigger contentions. I have a problem with the way that I see Mary and the saints treated in most non-Protestant traditions. I'm convinced the best way to honor the saints is not to pray to them, but to learn from their lives and seek to live like them as they live like Christ. I honestly think Mary would be aghast at the way she's treated today. She would say that she's just a servant and doesn't deserve this kind of attention.

    I also would like if we talk about the traditions to see the historical basis for them. When did they first show up? On what Scripture are they based? If I refuse to accept hadiths about Muhammad that come from 200 years later and even have names behind them, am I not inconsistent if I treat Christian traditions different?

    Yet there were some points I did disagree with. On p. 46, Ware says that we as Christians affirm panentheism. He says God is in all things yet above and beyond all things. I understand what Ware is trying to say, but I would not say panentheism because that's a different animal where often the world is seen as God's body and God needs the world in some sense. God is in all things in the sense that He's the sustaining cause of all things and all things are held together by His power (See passages like Hebrews 1:3 for example.), but He is not dependent on the world in any sense. I realize Ware would likely not disagree with that, but I think his phrasing here is quite bad.

    On p. 110 he speaks about the Bible. He says that the Orthodox appreciate all the research and study into the Bible, such as redaction criticism and things of that sort, but we cannot accept it wholesale. Who does? Especially since scholars of all persuasions disagree.

    Ware here deals with the idea of just a private reading of the Bible. To an extent, we would all discourage this. Even the Reformers wanted Scriptural interpretation to stay within the rule of faith. Sola Scriptura is often confused with Solo Scriptura. The Reformers did not oppose tradition as tradition. Tradition is not a bad thing, but tradition needs to be checked by Scripture.

    An example can be the authorship of the Gospels. Some Catholics I have seen say that the names aren't on the Gospels so you have to get that from tradition which means Sola Scriptura isn't true. Let's grant the premise for the sake of argument that the originals didn't have names on them, although some scholars have questioned this. The difference is we do have these Gospels and we know someone or some people wrote them. We can freely accept the opinions of the church fathers and compare it with internal evidence for authorship. In other words, we have something that already needs to be explained. We didn't make up the Gospels out of thin air.

    Ware then goes on to say that the final criterion for Biblical interpretation is the mind of the church. Here, we run into a problem. I could just ask "By what criteria is the mind of the church the authority?" After all, Catholics would say you need the magisterium. Both groups claim you need someone or something outside of the Bible like that to help you understand the Bible, but upon what grounds is that someone or something chosen that is not question-begging? Both of them claim apostolic succession after all.

    As a Protestant, I respond that the Bible is written in a way that much of it can be readily understood. Some is difficult and requires work, but to say that you can't interpret it strikes me as incredibly postmodern, as if the words themselves don't contain meaning that we can understand. Much of what I know about Biblical interpretation did not originate with these groups either, such as ideas about Genesis from John Walton or the honor-shame perspective of the Context Group of scholarship.

    This is not to say I have a problem with going to the Fathers to understand the Bible. I don't. Their words are important, but they are not infallible. For instance, I have at my house A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs. Recently, I had a discussion with someone asking if abortion was known in the ancient world. I said it was pointing to the Hippocratic Oath. I then decided to see what the church fathers said about sexuality and in the book looked up the section. The church fathers seemed to speak consistently that sex was seen as practically a necessary evil and to be used only for the purpose of procreation.

    I find it unlikely that most devout Orthodox and Catholics would agree with this. Even Catholics have Natural Family Planning for families that want to avoid contraception, but want to avoid having children for whatever reason and still enjoy the gift of sex. I have also been told that the Fathers are premillennial as well, yet I am not that at all with an Orthodox Preterist interpretation.

    I have no problem with saying that our reading should seek to get us to Christ and this is a danger of historical study at times that one can get to that position of proving something happened without showing why it happened. C.S. Lewis said years ago that some theologians work so hard to show that God exists that it would seem like He has nothing better to do than to exist.

    In the end, I was wondering what about this was so much the Orthodox Way. Much of it could have just been called the Christian Way since much of the theology as I said I have no problem with. I have a problem with shallow thinking no matter what the tradition is. I think a lot of people can find a new tradition and think they've found something totally new lacking in their original tradition, without pausing to see if such a thing exists in their tradition. I have no problem with things like liturgy and such. I do have a problem when I see doctrines that I can't find in Scripture and I have no way of verifying a tradition.

    My research continues hoping to find more historical. I encourage people in whatever tradition they are in to go deeper. We met with a Catholic priest once on this journey who told my wife she will find what she is seeking if she just goes deeper in Jesus. With that, I think all three traditions of Christianity would agree. All of us need to go deeper in Jesus.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Come further up and further in.
    Aslan.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
      What makes The Orthodox Way Orthodox?

      Link.

      ----

      What do I think of Bishop Kallistos Ware's book published by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

      My wife has been looking into the Eastern Orthodox Church. While at the church once, I asked the priest if he had any book in the church library he would recommend to help me understand Eastern Orthodoxy. He recommended I get The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware.

      So I went and got it. I came home and went through it over the next few days. I have to say in many ways I was....disappointed. I was expecting to find a lot that set apart the Orthodox as unique in comparison to Protestants and Catholics. I really didn't. I found a whole lot of theology, but it was theology I could say for the most part I agreed with.
      I haven't read this book, but from what I've heard about it you found more or less what I'd expect you to find. Because the Orthodox Church views itself as THE Church, the original Church, you're not going to find a whole lot of material - outside of polemics - which defines it over and against other churches. What you'll generally find is: this is the Church; this is what we believe. For a history of the Orthodox Church, you'll need to find a history written from the Eastern perspective (since most Western histories virtually ignore the East after about the 5th century). I'd generally recommend the series The Church In History; see also The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to its History, Doctrine, and Spiritual Culture by John McGuckin.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I haven't read this book, but from what I've heard about it you found more or less what I'd expect you to find. Because the Orthodox Church views itself as THE Church, the original Church, you're not going to find a whole lot of material - outside of polemics - which defines it over and against other churches.
        So a question with a context behind it I won't reveal until you answer: If a member of the Orthodox Church had aspirings to be an apologist, would they be able to find a job and make a living off of it?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jpholding View Post
          So a question with a context behind it I won't reveal until you answer: If a member of the Orthodox Church had aspirings to be an apologist, would they be able to find a job and make a living off of it?
          I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Do you mean, "would they be able to find a job as an apologist and make a living off of it?" I haven't the slightest notion. It doesn't seem to be an easy thing to do regardless of church; the only people I know personally in such a position are you and Nick; it took you quite a while to quit your day job (and I understand you still do some part-time work), and Nick isn't really living off his apologetics work. I'd say that apologetics is somewhat less important to the average Orthodox; a response to questions is typically more "come and see" than "this is what I believe and why." Does that help?
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I'd say that apologetics is somewhat less important to the average Orthodox; a response to questions is typically more "come and see" than "this is what I believe and why." Does that help?
            Mostly. I wondered if a Mike Licona could have ever emerged in or from Orthodoxy. But you've said you don't know that.

            Part 2: What do you make of the way Hank Hanegraaff is being regarded within Orthodoxy, assuming you know about it?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jpholding View Post
              Mostly. I wondered if a Mike Licona could have ever emerged in or from Orthodoxy. But you've said you don't know that.
              Well, there are Orthodox scholars, though many of them are priests, and would make their living that way. David Bentley Hart is an Orthodox philosopher (Atheist Delusions, The Beauty of the Infinite).
              Part 2: What do you make of the way Hank Hanegraaff is being regarded within Orthodoxy, assuming you know about it?
              I'm not all that familiar with it. Frederica Matthewes-Green is very supportive of him, and she's a popular author. Aside from that, I haven't seen much. Orthodoxy is also not ...an organized religion, so I'm sure there is a spectrum of views. The attacks on him I've seen on Youtube have all been from Protestants, fwiw.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jpholding View Post
                Mostly. I wondered if a Mike Licona could have ever emerged in or from Orthodoxy. But you've said you don't know that.

                Part 2: What do you make of the way Hank Hanegraaff is being regarded within Orthodoxy, assuming you know about it?
                David Bentley Hart is not a New Testament scholar in the same vein as Licona, but he's a highly prominent Orthodox theologian who has done some interesting work, some more apologetic and some not, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Delusions

                "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                Katniss Everdeen


                Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  David Bentley Hart is an Orthodox philosopher (Atheist Delusions, The Beauty of the Infinite).
                  Yes, I have a positive review of one of his books somewhere.

                  I'm not all that familiar with it. Frederica Matthewes-Green is very supportive of him, and she's a popular author. Aside from that, I haven't seen much. Orthodoxy is also not ...an organized religion, so I'm sure there is a spectrum of views. The attacks on him I've seen on Youtube have all been from Protestants, fwiw.
                  That answers my part 3 and final question. You will then not have heard of a certain Orthodox apologist who IS attacking Hanegraaff. Though I find his motives questionable as he is also an ex-CRI employee. The same personage is also attacking Green for supporting Hanegraaff.

                  Whatever virtue they may have (I have found none so far), I find the attacks a little tacky regardless when the man is dying of cancer.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There's also Jaroslav Pelikan, who was a Lutheran convert to Orthodoxy. He was a historian and theologian who wrote a lot on the history of Christianity, tradition, and doctrinal development.

                    "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                    "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                    Katniss Everdeen


                    Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I would say that Father Andrew Stephen Damick is an apologist. His specialty is more along the lines of world religions and various Christian denominations, sort of like Ravi Zacharias.
                      "Concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it. Remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being; remind yourself what nature demands of people. Then do it, without hesitation, and speak the truth as you see it. But with kindness. With humility. Without hypocrisy."
                      -Marcus Aurelius

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Gary Cattell ("The Willard Preacher" at Penn State) could be considered an open-air Orthodox apologist.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          I haven't read this book, but from what I've heard about it you found more or less what I'd expect you to find. Because the Orthodox Church views itself as THE Church, the original Church, you're not going to find a whole lot of material - outside of polemics - which defines it over and against other churches. What you'll generally find is: this is the Church; this is what we believe. For a history of the Orthodox Church, you'll need to find a history written from the Eastern perspective (since most Western histories virtually ignore the East after about the 5th century). I'd generally recommend the series The Church In History; see also The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to its History, Doctrine, and Spiritual Culture by John McGuckin.
                          Just ordered McGuckin's book at the library. I'd like more specifics on The Church In History

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            Just ordered McGuckin's book at the library. I'd like more specifics on The Church In History
                            Yeah, it needs more description. It's hard to describe succinctly, because the books are by different authors and there's been more than one editor. It's also incomplete.

                            The lead book is Formation And Struggles: The Church Ad 33-450: the Birth of the Church Ad 33-200 by Vesilin Kesich - this is easily the weakest book in the series
                            Imperial Unity and Christian Divisions: The Church 450-680 A.D. (The Church in History) by John Meyendorff
                            Greek East And Latin West: The Church AD 681-1071 (The Church in History) by Andrew Louth
                            The Christian East and the Rise of the Papacy: The Church 1071-1453 A.D (Church History) by Aristeides Papadakis

                            You might also be interested in Orthodox Christianity Volume I: The History and Canonical Structure of the Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev - I have the first two of four volumes, but haven't gotten around to reading them yet.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I will have to wait for those. My limit of ILL books has been reached for the time being until I pick more up and turn more in.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
                              14 responses
                              74 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
                              6 responses
                              61 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
                              1 response
                              23 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
                              0 responses
                              22 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
                              4 responses
                              47 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Working...
                              X