Because liberals prefer an easy BS solution that fails to solve the problem or address the underlying causes so they can keep blaming various imagined hobgoblins and boogeymen to keep themselves in power. Ever since the birth of the left as we know it, they have only ever been about one thing: micromanaging the social and economic lives of every man, woman and child at the point of a gun. Everything up to and including multiple mass genocide is perfectly acceptable as long as furthers their insane views.
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Chicago Isn't Broke Enough? Universal Basic Income...
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Originally posted by Rational Gaze View PostBecause liberals prefer an easy BS solution that fails to solve the problem or address the underlying causes so they can keep blaming various imagined hobgoblins and boogeymen to keep themselves in power. Ever since the birth of the left as we know it, they have only ever been about one thing: micromanaging the social and economic lives of every man, woman and child at the point of a gun. Everything up to and including multiple mass genocide is perfectly acceptable as long as furthers their insane views."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostThe difference though, is who they depend on for that money. When the government gives people free money, they depend on the government. They are not independent.
Eventually, people will decide to stop earning it if the government is just going to take it
You think that it's helping to give people cash indefinitely
they aren't being given the means of creating that wealth for themselves.
So you do know how it works.
Let's say that donut shop owners wanted their community to have more money to spend. So, they find a few poor people and start giving them a paycheck, but not a job in their shop. These poor people are still technically unemployed, but at least they have money for donuts, right? Where does that money come from? It's an investment with no hope of return.
But if the shop owner hires these poor people and teaches the employees how to make great donuts and how to run a donut shop most efficiently, and they all go out and start their own shops, they are earning that money themselves and it's absolutely sustainable.
If the policy you are instead proposing is that the government could pay businesses to take on more staff than they need/want, thereby creating more jobs, sure, I'm mostly on board with that. Then you're kind of heading in the direction of a federal jobs guarantee of the kind that Bernie Sanders and some Democrats are currently talking about. You'd have to try and figure out exactly how to differentiate between a 'normal' employee that the business would have hired anyway, and an 'extra' employee whom the government is paying the business to hire unnecessarily, and try to prevent employers from scamming the system by claiming subsidies for employees they would have hired anyway and that gets complex, but imagining you could find a way to do that then the policy seems okay.
So it doesn't enable companies to hire more people and bring down the unemployment rate? Interesting.
The only ways it typically changes employment levels is if people who had previously been voluntarily unemployed decide it's now "worth working" at the new higher minimum wage levels and start applying for/getting jobs, or if the raise to the minimum wage is high enough that workers are now able to save some of their income and are no longer living paycheck to paycheck and thus not spending their entire pay increase which may then lower employment as businesses aren't seeing the same increase in revenue that they're spending in increased wages.
Australia released a study on the subject showing minimum wage increases caused no job losses and maybe caused a few job gains, and they have one of the highest minimum wages in the world. Their minimum wage is currently $18.93 AUD per hour, which is somewhere in the vicinity of $14-$18 USD per hour depending on how the exchange rate is doing in any given year.
"Hey Bob, I'm going to assume you're not capable of earning your own money, so I'm not even going to bother trying to help you get yourself out of this mess. I'm going to give you $500 every month, indefinitely." How is that NOT demeaning to the poor?!
How about "life's hard and we're all in this together as a society and a country, have $500 to help yourself get back on your feet"?
I'd rather be given job skills to get myself out instead of being made dependant on the government for my daily needs.
I'm saying that it's unsustainable for only those with jobs to support everyone (including those without jobs) rather than everyone making their own money. This is basic economics.
I'm not judging the poor people. I'm simply pointing out that there is no dignity in being dependant on the government when there are other ways.
It's not the government's job to build roads,
My point is, there are things that the government should provide for its citizens, and things it shouldn't.
Would you want the government to wipe your butt for you every time you poop?
But, wiping your butt is a basic necessity! Why shouldn't the government do it for you?
But I wouldn't approach it with arbitrary philosophical declarations of "I think the government inherently should/shouldn't be in the business of toilets" and would regard anyone who did as silly.
you want a government agent stationed at every toilet."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostBearing in mind that:
40 percent of US adults couldn't afford a $400 emergency expense
57 percent of US adults couldn't afford a $500 one-off expense
Only 39% of Americans have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency
I think an extra $500 a month would be absolutely life-changing for a lot of Americans.
Bernie Sanders did what was apparently a pretty stunning CEOs vs Workers townhall this week, which I haven't watched yet, where several run-of-the-mill US workers shared their despair at not even being able to cover unexpected $20 expenses. If someone is really struggling to deal with bills in the $20 range, and you rock up to them and hand them an extra $500 a month no strings attached that is probably going to dramatically improve their quality of life and day-to-day stress levels.
It's obviously not going to make them rich, and it's obviously not enough in and of itself to live on. But I do think this is probably the way forward for the Western world: Begin to add these universal basic income payments at low levels (independent of any existing welfare benefits) and if they prove to work well, gradually ramp them up over time and collect data on how well they're working each step of the way. I will be fascinated to see how this turns out if Chicago decides to go ahead with it.
I would absolutely love to see my country introduce a ~0.1% per year tax on property and share assets (which is where ~99.99% of the wealth in the modern world lies) and to dish out that money to everyone in the form of a universal basic income and have a look at how that works, because existing data suggests it ought to work really well.
It's possible this is intended by Chicago as at least partially an anti-crime measure. Presumably if you go to jail/prison you stop getting the money? Incarcerating people is really expensive, like really really expensive - it's cheaper to send someone to the best university in the country on a full scholarship for a year than put them in prison for a year. So if you can pay at-risk people to not commit crime it really is financially worth it. And pilot programs around the world have found that paying high-risk people to not commit crime really can work. If you think of the traditional idea of a carrot and a stick as the standard means of persuasion, it's a bit strange if you think about it that our societies have always used the stick (punishment / prison) to discourage crime, but never thought to use the carrot. Funnily enough, it turns out the carrot works too.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOutside of this forum, my experiences with humans have been pretty positive.
Gotta get outside my bubble of kind and sane people sometimes and talk to different people."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostWhat Chicago is doing sounds like a cheesy experiment to me. Its a small welfare bonus, or like Mountain Man suggests a bait-and-switch. I don't like it.
The concept of a Universal Basic Income is interesting, but aside from experiments with it in various places I've only ever heard it seriously discussed as something that would inevitably occur in a post-scarcity economy.
We don't live in a post-scarcity economy. There's significant competition for limited resourced. There's limited areable land, there's limited sources of clean water, there's limited amounts of oil. There's plenty of consumer goods and consumables that require large amounts of effort in terms of man hours to extract and process.
I don't see the need for a universal basic income here. It would belong in an age that is inevitably coming where automation has made menial labor a thing of the past. This is inevitable. Like the peak oil, there's nothing we can do about the basic facts of the matter. Automation is getting better. Cars can drive themselves already, and this will soon become mainstream. Farming could become entirely automated requiring only a small number of overseers. At first this will open up new kinds of jobs for technitians, and system administrators. However there's no doubting that the jobs will require more and more technical knowledge to perform.
When the robots become capable of repairing robots themselves, cleaning homes, doing the works of miners, of construction workers, ... A large force of people will exist without employment. There won't be jobs to give them. Companies could be incentivised to use humans when possible, but companies being companies will always go for the cheaper. Its inevitable. A large number of people will be left without jobs that could provide an income.
You could teach a man to fish, but when he gets to the lake there's already twenty FisherBot2000 robots catching pretty much any fish in the lake to be had.
In a society like that with a radically automated industry the price of all goods would drop exponentially. Since the industry requires few people it can scale itself up. Its really hard to know what effects this would have politically, or economically. But there's wide agreement that at that point simply granting all people a universal basic income would be the easiest way to deal with the dissatisfied populace.
This wouldn't be a paltry 500$ a week. It'd be a living wage of something like 3000$ per month, at least. In other words if you don't want to work you don't have to. If there's no jobs for you then you'd still be able to live a good life, in a nice apartment, with all the luxuries of life.
TLDR; To me its a science-fiction proposal for how to manage the economy in a humane way some 100 to 200 years from now.
I think no matter what, people will always have jobs. The jobs just shift to new areas.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhile I could use $500 a month extra, I wonder where Chicago thinks this money will come from? They don't exactly have a debt-free city and merely raising taxes just takes money away from other people who might need it just as much. If this is a no questions asked, you know that everyone will want it, and nobody will want to pay for it.
I'm sure that yet another major tax-and-spend program is just what is needed to stem the flow.
I'm always still in trouble again
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostChicago is slowly but surely experiencing a population drain as those who can afford to are leaving. It has seen a decline over the past three years being the only major U.S. city to lose population during that period.
I'm sure that yet another major tax-and-spend program is just what is needed to stem the flow.
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More jobs..."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
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Originally posted by Starlight View Post"The unexamined life is not worth living."
Gotta get outside my bubble of kind and sane people sometimes and talk to different people.
Same here! It really makes you appreciate one's rational, good natured friends. You know, normal people!“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey have been saying all this since the early 20th century when automation became possible. Then again when computers came along. Yet instead of eliminating jobs for mass numbers of people, automation has created new jobs and changed the way people did old jobs. Those who could not keep up eventually retired. Some did lose their jobs. But that is the way society has always been. The automobile replaced buggy makers and horse farms. Automated looms replaced manual loomers, but opened up a ton of new jobs in the textile industry.
I think no matter what, people will always have jobs. The jobs just shift to new areas.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
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Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostChicago is slowly but surely experiencing a population drain as those who can afford to are leaving. It has seen a decline over the past three years being the only major U.S. city to lose population during that period.
I'm sure that yet another major tax-and-spend program is just what is needed to stem the flow.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey have been saying all this since the early 20th century when automation became possible. Then again when computers came along. Yet instead of eliminating jobs for mass numbers of people, automation has created new jobs and changed the way people did old jobs. Those who could not keep up eventually retired. Some did lose their jobs. But that is the way society has always been. The automobile replaced buggy makers and horse farms. Automated looms replaced manual loomers, but opened up a ton of new jobs in the textile industry.
I think no matter what, people will always have jobs. The jobs just shift to new areas.
I admit its speculative, but I think we'll have a situation where the majority of the population wouldn't have the required skill to fill the relatively small amount of jobs available. If such a situation became the case, then I think universal basic income would happen. Either that or we'd transition to a money less society, since commodities could be produced so quickly that putting a price on them would be pointless.
Its the same with Peak Oil predictions. There's only a finite amount of oil in the ground. Its a non-replenishing resource. Ergo oil prices will inevitably rise as it becomes more scarce. When that occurs is hard to predict, but its inevitable.
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