Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

The Orthodox Churches practices of veneration.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Orthodox Churches practices of veneration.

    Nick,

    I (and I assume some others) would be interested in your thinking on this issue veneration [of physical objects].

    Thanks.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    I assume you're interested in arguing about it.

    Nick doubtless disagrees with it, as a Protestant (as I once did).
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I assume you're interested in arguing about it.

      Nick doubtless disagrees with it, as a Protestant (as I once did).
      I would also be interested how you resolved this issue for yourself. Thank you.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        I would also be interested how you resolved this issue for yourself. Thank you.
        It stems from veneration of the saints, which is closely related to prayer to the saints. Veneration of an object is veneration of the saint depicted on (i.e., icons) or associated with (i.e., relics) the object. The practice is very likely as old as some events depicted in Acts, where people were cured by Paul's handkerchiefs. Saints are worthy of veneration because of their Christ-likeness. I resolved the issue of prayer to the saints by noting that it works; I can't very well condemn something God honors. As something of an aside, I feel viscerally much more connected to the "church triumphant" than I did as a Protestant; they're not just history to me any more, but members of the living Church.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          It stems from veneration of the saints, which is closely related to prayer to the saints. Veneration of an object is veneration of the saint depicted on (i.e., icons) or associated with (i.e., relics) the object. The practice is very likely as old as some events depicted in Acts, where people were cured by Paul's handkerchiefs. Saints are worthy of veneration because of their Christ-likeness. I resolved the issue of prayer to the saints by noting that it works; I can't very well condemn something God honors. As something of an aside, I feel viscerally much more connected to the "church triumphant" than I did as a Protestant; they're not just history to me any more, but members of the living Church.
          So I need to ask another question:
          So did you or did you not transition from the belief that all genuine Christians are saints?
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            So I need to ask another question:
            So did you or did you not transition from the belief that all genuine Christians are saints?
            Of course all genuine Christians are saints. That the Church marks some of them out for especial veneration in no way negates that.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              *bump for more*
              Last edited by Ana Dragule; 07-21-2018, 02:18 PM.
              I am become death...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                It stems from veneration of the saints, which is closely related to prayer to the saints.
                And do you think that perhaps this sort of veneration has become excessive in Orthodoxy and Catholicism, transgressing biblical precedent of regarding certain individuals as blessed and greatly used by God (cf. Acts 3:12)?

                Veneration of an object is veneration of the saint depicted on (i.e., icons) or associated with (i.e., relics) the object. The practice is very likely as old as some events depicted in Acts, where people were cured by Paul's handkerchiefs.
                Of course it was God doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul; and of course Paul recognized that, ensuring God was magnified. Do you think if the residents of Ephesus in Acts 19 turned their attention in a state of veneration magnifying Paul as well, that perhaps he might have rebuked them?

                Saints are worthy of veneration because of their Christ-likeness.
                Saints deserve to be held in honor and respect, love and esteem, being vehicles God used here on earth, but praying to departed saints seems excessive, falling into the category of human tradition at best.

                I resolved the issue of prayer to the saints by noting that it works; I can't very well condemn something God honors.
                This seems sufficiently vague and reminiscent of language used by those in cults when they lack biblical justification for their doctrines and practice.

                As something of an aside, I feel viscerally much more connected to the "church triumphant" than I did as a Protestant; they're not just history to me any more, but members of the living Church.
                Of course this anecdote has more to do with you than any actual shortcomings of Protestantism, which you seem to acknowledge.
                Last edited by Scrawly; 08-09-2018, 07:32 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                  And do you think that perhaps this sort of veneration has become excessive in Orthodoxy and Catholicism, transgressing biblical precedent of regarding certain individuals as blessed and greatly used by God (cf. Acts 3:12)?
                  Um, what? I think that veneration of Mary is sometimes excessive in Catholicism; "coredemptrix" is a bit much.
                  Of course it was God doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul; and of course Paul recognized that, ensuring God was magnified.
                  Of course. And, of course, when an extraordinary miracle is worked through the intercession of a saint, God is magnified.
                  Do you think if the residents of Ephesus in Acts 19 turned their attention in a state of veneration magnifying Paul as well, that perhaps he might have rebuked them?
                  I think that you're reading your own attitude into Paul. Maybe they took Paul's clothing when he wasn't looking (Acts 19:11-12)? See also Gal. 4:12-15.
                  Saints deserve to be held in honor and respect, love and esteem, being vehicles God used here on earth, but praying to departed saints seems excessive, falling into the category of human tradition at best.
                  Praying to departed saints has been done since at least the third century. It has resulted in countless miracles, through which God gets the glory. Does God honor human tradition, in your opinion?
                  This seems sufficiently vague and reminiscent of language used by those in cults when they lack biblical justification for their doctrines and practice.
                  This seems like entirely unfounded slander against something you don't happen to like. Does cultic doctrine and practice result in glory to God, like miracles worked through the intercession of saints do?
                  Of course this anecdote has more to do with you than any actual shortcomings of Protestantism, which you seem to acknowledge.
                  Not really. I am far from alone in it.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Um, what? I think that veneration of Mary is sometimes excessive in Catholicism; "coredemptrix" is a bit much.
                    I am talking specifically about the veneration manifesting in prayers and entreaties to departed saints. This practice is excessive as it goes well beyond the love and esteem we are to hold for all the saints, especially those who have labored greatly as the Apostle's did. We are to emulate their faith not entreat them once they have departed, as there is one mediator between God and mankind -- the Lord Jesus. The fact that we pray for others here on earth is the will of God, as the bible teaches.

                    Of course. And, of course, when an extraordinary miracle is worked through the intercession of a saint, God is magnified.
                    There is no biblical precedent for entreating departed saints. There is no indication that the Apostle's pointed us in this direction. Prayers and intercessions for those here on earth is in sync with Apostolic teaching -- entreating departed saints is not in sync with Apostolic teaching and biblical precedent.

                    I think that you're reading your own attitude into Paul. Maybe they took Paul's clothing when he wasn't looking (Acts 19:11-12)? See also Gal. 4:12-15.
                    Paul's attitude was one of magnifying the Lord and denigrating himself as chief of sinners, yet greatly used of God. In Gal. 4:12-15 Paul is reminding the Galatians that they initially welcomed him with such graciousness and hospitality as if he was an angel of God, nay, as if he were the Lord himself, despite his physical infirmity; having joyfully received his gospel. Are you under the impression that Paul was laying down some precedent that he is to be venerated along with angels and the Lord?

                    Praying to departed saints has been done since at least the third century.
                    Well it appears that the tradition is absent from the Apostolic witness recorded in their writings. So the roots of the practice don't go back far enough.

                    It has resulted in countless miracles, through which God gets the glory.
                    Perceived miracles are celebrated by many groups engaged in aberrant practices. If the practice is indeed aberrant and foreign to Apostolic teaching, then God doesn't get the glory despite your feelings and perceptions otherwise.

                    Does God honor human tradition, in your opinion?
                    If the tradition is consonant with scripture and Apostolic teaching, yes.

                    This seems like entirely unfounded slander against something you don't happen to like.
                    Nope. You originally stated: "I resolved the issue of prayer to the saints by noting that it works; I can't very well condemn something God honors." You implicitly acknowledge that this practice is not found in scripture and there is no precedent established by the Apostle's for it, yet you practice it because it "works". Such rationalizations are deployed by cultic groups and those who hold to aberrant doctrine, in my experience.

                    Does cultic doctrine and practice result in glory to God, like miracles worked through the intercession of saints do?
                    I am weary of basing a highly questionable practice on the foundation of perceived miracles. It wouldn't take long to find similar accounts of perceived miracles in Islamic circles, health and wealth movements, and other aberrant groups and cults.

                    Not really. I am far from alone in it.
                    Your experience and the experience of others should conform to Scripture and Apostolic teaching, and at this point it appears your experiences are without biblical justification.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      On the contrary, since it is it venerable to ask for intercession from a saint living on Earth, then since the saints in Heaven are also alive it also good to ask for their prayers.

                      Source: Mark 12:26-27

                      And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      And do you think that perhaps this sort of veneration has become excessive in Orthodoxy and Catholicism
                      No, though maybe Marian veneration is a bit excessive in the Orthodox Church considering how often they invoke her during their Divine Liturgy.

                      (see what I did there One Bad Pig )

                      (cf. Acts 3:12)? Of course it was God doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul;
                      Exactly, Catholics affirm nothing else. No Canonized Saint is great because of who they are, but because of how God used them, and how they cooperated with God's grace.

                      There is no biblical precedent for entreating departed saints ... but praying to departed saints seems excessive, falling into the category of human tradition at best
                      Its always been part of the Church praxis as far back as you can track it. The notion that doing so is forbidden is a very recent invention under Calvin and Zwingli. There are also books from the Bible that Luther, Calvin and Zwingli removed because, among other things, the books implied that praying for the dead had merit. So I'm not too impressed by you saying it doesn't have biblical support.

                      One such place 2 Maccabees 15:14

                      Source: 2 Maccabees 15:14

                      And Onias spoke, saying, ‘This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God'”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      On these grounds, I don't think we can find neutral common ground. I trust the Church's tradition as laid out by the Church Fathers and as interpreted by the Magisterium, and I trust the canon laid out in the Council of Trent (which only canonised a canon of books that had always been recognised by the Church).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        No, though maybe Marian veneration is a bit excessive in the Orthodox Church considering how often they invoke her during their Divine Liturgy.

                        (see what I did there One Bad Pig )
                        Yes, you aped my serious theological concern with a specious argument.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                          I am talking specifically about the veneration manifesting in prayers and entreaties to departed saints. This practice is excessive as it goes well beyond the love and esteem we are to hold for all the saints, especially those who have labored greatly as the Apostle's did. We are to emulate their faith not entreat them once they have departed, as there is one mediator between God and mankind -- the Lord Jesus. The fact that we pray for others here on earth is the will of God, as the bible teaches.
                          I note that your distincion has no Biblical basis.
                          There is no biblical precedent for entreating departed saints. There is no indication that the Apostle's pointed us in this direction. Prayers and intercessions for those here on earth is in sync with Apostolic teaching -- entreating departed saints is not in sync with Apostolic teaching and biblical precedent.
                          Yet more argument from silence.
                          Paul's attitude was one of magnifying the Lord and denigrating himself as chief of sinners, yet greatly used of God. In Gal. 4:12-15 Paul is reminding the Galatians that they initially welcomed him with such graciousness and hospitality as if he was an angel of God, nay, as if he were the Lord himself, despite his physical infirmity; having joyfully received his gospel. Are you under the impression that Paul was laying down some precedent that he is to be venerated along with angels and the Lord?
                          Um, no. I'm saying that Paul attests they held him in high esteem. I venerate the saints, I venerate angels; I worship the Lord. Do you see the distinction?
                          Well it appears that the tradition is absent from the Apostolic witness recorded in their writings. So the roots of the practice don't go back far enough.
                          Prove, from scripture, that the apostles wrote down everything they intended to pass down.

                          Go on, I'll wait.
                          Perceived miracles are celebrated by many groups engaged in aberrant practices. If the practice is indeed aberrant and foreign to Apostolic teaching, then God doesn't get the glory despite your feelings and perceptions otherwise.
                          Flailing attempt at rebuttal noted.
                          If the tradition is consonant with scripture and Apostolic teaching, yes.
                          Well, it is. The fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much - whether or not the righteous man is present in the body or present with the Lord.
                          Nope. You originally stated: "I resolved the issue of prayer to the saints by noting that it works; I can't very well condemn something God honors." You implicitly acknowledge that this practice is not found in scripture and there is no precedent established by the Apostle's for it, yet you practice it because it "works". Such rationalizations are deployed by cultic groups and those who hold to aberrant doctrine, in my experience.
                          Such rationalizations may be used by "cultic groups and those who hold to aberrant doctrine" but you'd need to, you know, prove that. In my experience dealing with and reading about cults, such groups inevitably twist and/or ignore significant chunks of scripture in order to justify their aberrant doctrines. You need to come up with something more than nebulous slander.
                          I am weary of basing a highly questionable practice on the foundation of perceived miracles. It wouldn't take long to find similar accounts of perceived miracles in Islamic circles, health and wealth movements, and other aberrant groups and cults.
                          Hey, now you're sort of getting into specifics. Islam is not exactly biblically based (and Allah doesn't much go in for miracles anyway), and health and wealth groups sort of ignore Jesus' injunction not to store up treasures for yourselves on earth (among others).
                          Your experience and the experience of others should conform to Scripture and Apostolic teaching, and at this point it appears your experiences are without biblical justification.
                          This is something of a false dichotomy. My experience fully conforms to Scripture and Apostolic teaching, even if it is not necessarily explicitly spelled out in Scripture. Scripture is not, and never was meant to be, an exhaustive compendium for everything we believe; the gospels and Acts are thumbnail sketches of the history and teachings they cover, and the epistles are largely occasional pieces dealing with specific problems. The Orthodox church service is STILL recognizably similar to the Jewish synagogue service from whence it came, with the Eucharist added at the end. That's not spelled out in Scripture, because it didn't need to be; everyone was already doing it. Does that mean it's not Apostolic? No.

                          Have you noticed that those who demand justification from the Bible for everything can't agree on what's justified? The "30,000 Protestant churches" argument is specious, but Protestantism has never been known for uniformity of belief.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Yes, you aped my serious theological concern with a specious argument.
                            Personally, understood the right way, I don't see anything too different between how the Eastern Orthodox conceive of The Virgin Mother's participation in the mystery of salvation, and what's actually proposed in a title of Coredemptorix.

                            As neither side has formalised any teachings here. I don't think its a hill for you and I to die on.

                            Its also a different discussion, I'm much less equipped to take.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Personally, understood the right way, I don't see anything too different between how the Eastern Orthodox conceive of The Virgin Mother's participation in the mystery of salvation, and what's actually proposed in a title of Coredemptorix.

                              As neither side has formalised any teachings here. I don't think its a hill for you and I to die on.

                              Its also a different discussion, I'm much less equipped to take.
                              The word can be easily misunderstood, and many people don't have more than a surface understanding of things. I don't care much for "Mother of God" as a translation for "Theotokos" either, for much the same reason.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
                              14 responses
                              75 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
                              6 responses
                              61 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
                              1 response
                              23 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
                              0 responses
                              22 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
                              7 responses
                              58 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Working...
                              X