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San Francisco Needs an Immediate Independent Audit

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Says the guy with a phony PhD who doesn't bother reading original sources.

    Jesus was, in fact, apolitical. The closest he ever got to making a political statement was when he said, "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." Jesus advocated righteousness on a personal level whereas Marx advocated abdicating personal responsibility to the state. Marxism and Christianity are ideological opposites.
    I like how Charles Spurgeon explained it during a sermon on April 28, 1889 at the Metropolitan Tabernacle in Newington (in central London):



    I would not have you exchange the gold of individual Christianity for the base metal of Christian Socialism

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #17
      So basically it the city is paying over $30K for people to hand out a few dollars to homeless people? Very inefficient. Give the money to local churches to distribute as food, clothes, shelter and job training. I bet nearly 100% would go to the poor, since most churches will get members to donate their time.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        So basically it the city is paying over $30K for people to hand out a few dollars to homeless people? Very inefficient. Give the money to local churches to distribute as food, clothes, shelter and job training. I bet nearly 100% would go to the poor, since most churches will get members to donate their time.
        It definitely sounds inefficient, but while I know personally of how good Church based charity can be, wedding Churches to the government is not something I'm comfortable with. The only thing I could imagine like this would be a Church Tax, that acted as tithing for faith-based communities. But that stuff can be dangerous to the church. In Germany even though only a very small percentage of catholics there go to Church, the German bishops have enormous funds because church taxes are collected from the nominal catholics.

        Meaning a relatively spiritually dead branch of the Catholic Church still gets to have a very large say in matters.

        But you're right it sounds like there's inefficiency somewhere in the system. Depends on how that money was spend. I'm a bit dubious about the calculations that takes the 200 million dollars and divides it by the 7000 homeless. Some of that money was earmarked off for other initiatives as well I'm sure.

        I don't live in San Francisco so I have no idea how to solve that problem.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          "Ill-nourished" and "red head" come from where, exactly?
          I thought Jesus fasted, and he had a tendency to argue with pharisees? There's the whole incident where he drove out people. Being red headed can mean being angry.

          I'm not even gonna get started on how ridiculous 'alien' is...
          I definitely agree. Jesus wasn't an alien in that country.

          Seer is wrong - this is worse.
          I guess you pick your battles Teal, and you believe what I wrote was more offensive than what Seer wrote. I saw Seer and Rushing Jaw pretty much advocating for arresting them. I don't think that's the solution. Cheaper housing is a solution. Avoiding gentrification would be a solution. Programs for getting these people back into work would be a solution.

          I don't think homeless people are unavoidable. Even in Denmark where we have welfare system so fine-grained that its basically impenetrable, you still find some homeless people. They're homeless for all sorts of reasons, but not because they didn't have the opportunity of getting income, or a place to stay.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            I thought Jesus fasted, and he had a tendency to argue with pharisees? There's the whole incident where he drove out people. Being red headed can mean being angry.
            I appreciate your valiant attempt to rescue the graphic on this point, but it actually says "red beard".
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I appreciate your valiant attempt to rescue the graphic on this point, but it actually says "red beard".
              Yeah that I can't defend. I read it as red headed.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                I thought Jesus fasted, and he had a tendency to argue with pharisees? There's the whole incident where he drove out people. Being red headed can mean being angry.



                I definitely agree. Jesus wasn't an alien in that country.



                I guess you pick your battles Teal, and you believe what I wrote was more offensive than what Seer wrote. I saw Seer and Rushing Jaw pretty much advocating for arresting them. I don't think that's the solution. Cheaper housing is a solution. Avoiding gentrification would be a solution. Programs for getting these people back into work would be a solution.

                I don't think homeless people are unavoidable. Even in Denmark where we have welfare system so fine-grained that its basically impenetrable, you still find some homeless people. They're homeless for all sorts of reasons, but not because they didn't have the opportunity of getting income, or a place to stay.
                Fasting and 'ill nourished' are two entirely separate things - the latter implying a state close to malnourishment, not refraining from eating for religious reasons.

                Seer ticked me off so much I haven't answered him yet - I was waiting until I was calmer, now it'd just be dog piling. Why I think your post is worse is that your graphic portrays Jesus falsely - in the strictest sense, He wasn't homeless. Yes, I know the verse - but do you really believe He couldn't have gone back to Nazareth and lived with his mom? Jesus was itinerant, not homeless as we use the term. Career choice isn't the same thing as unable to get housing.

                That said, of course Seer's in the wrong - sweeping people under the rug rather than solving the actual problem is no solution at all. It's certainly not a justifiable 'solution' from the Christian POV that serves the poor, not hides them. But you only make it worse by misappropriating - and misrepresenting - Jesus.

                If you really want to make that point, use Paul - 'Mr. I am all things to all people' actually fits the bill in more of those respects (and not at all where Jesus divinity is clearly in view). If you have to use Jesus, use what He did - which never involved summoning authorities to have poor people hauled out of the streets - but rather involved meeting their needs - and their deepest need - right then and there..
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  It definitely sounds inefficient, but while I know personally of how good Church based charity can be, wedding Churches to the government is not something I'm comfortable with. The only thing I could imagine like this would be a Church Tax, that acted as tithing for faith-based communities. But that stuff can be dangerous to the church. In Germany even though only a very small percentage of catholics there go to Church, the German bishops have enormous funds because church taxes are collected from the nominal catholics.

                  Meaning a relatively spiritually dead branch of the Catholic Church still gets to have a very large say in matters.

                  But you're right it sounds like there's inefficiency somewhere in the system. Depends on how that money was spend. I'm a bit dubious about the calculations that takes the 200 million dollars and divides it by the 7000 homeless. Some of that money was earmarked off for other initiatives as well I'm sure.

                  I don't live in San Francisco so I have no idea how to solve that problem.
                  Yeah not wanting to create a church tax. But the government could involve local churches to help the needy and donate some of the already collected taxes they spend on welfare on that instead.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Yeah not wanting to create a church tax. But the government could involve local churches to help the needy and donate some of the already collected taxes they spend on welfare on that instead.
                    I'm up for anything as long as its efficient. If enough money is thrown at it, some follow up studies should be done to see how efficient the programs are, done by disinterested third parties. Not that governments are always good at being evidence driven.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      That said, of course Seer's in the wrong - sweeping people under the rug rather than solving the actual problem is no solution at all. It's certainly not a justifiable 'solution' from the Christian POV that serves the poor, not hides them. But you only make it worse by misappropriating - and misrepresenting - Jesus.
                      What did I do besides state a fact? And let me ask you Teallaura, how much time have you spent working in soup kitchens or homeless shelters? Or running a prison ministry? How many homeless persons do you personally know by name? Or taken into your home on cold nights? I'm not blowing my own horn (because I could have done a lot more) but I have done all these things, so I don't need a lecture from you.
                      Last edited by seer; 07-20-2018, 01:59 PM.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        I'm up for anything as long as its efficient. If enough money is thrown at it, some follow up studies should be done to see how efficient the programs are, done by disinterested third parties. Not that governments are always good at being evidence driven.
                        right now they have to have case workers, inspectors, department heads, buildings to work in, cleaning and maintenance staff to care for the building, accounting personnel, equipment and utility costs, and on and on. So by the time a donated dollar gets to the person needing it, he gets a penny.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          What did I do besides state a fact? And let me ask you Teallaura, how much time have you spent working in soup kitchens or homeless shelters? Or running a prison ministry? How many homeless persons do you personally know by name? Or taken into your home on cold nights? I'm not blowing my own horn (because I could have done a lot more) but I have done all these things, so I don't need a lecture from you.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            What did I do besides state a fact? And let me ask you Teallaura, how much time have you spent working in soup kitchens or homeless shelters? Or running a prison ministry? How many homeless persons do you personally know by name? Or taken into your home on cold nights? I'm not blowing my own horn (because I could have done a lot more) but I have done all these things, so I don't need a lecture from you.
                            Seer, Teal has been homeless.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Why are you shaking your head Leonhard, what the hell did I do wrong?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Seer, Teal has been homeless.
                                And I have been close, squatting in houses with no heat or electric.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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