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Thread: Atheism irrefutable.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Atheism irrefutable.

    Atheism irrefutable is possible based on the common theistic arguments for the existence of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    . . . I want to remind Christians that it was possible to make empirical arguments for the existence of God based on the observance of nature . . . .
    In all such arguments existence is not what needs proof, God does.

    The argument can be made that a god is not necessary based on self evident truth. A theist needs to answer the question why truth needs a god to be true?

    For example, the simple concept of 1 + 1 = 2. Why does that need God to be true?

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    huh?

    Are you arguing FOR atheism now?

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    huh?

    Are you arguing FOR atheism now?
    No, he's devised another argument against it - he's just dodging around the question of existence by positing that nothing could be true without God. It's circular and only compelling to Christians. I actually agree with the point - but as an argument against atheism, it is a non-starter.

    The stupid title seems to assume that it's possible that you cannot refute atheism merely because you cannot prove the existence of God - empirically. But since the converse is also true, so what?

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    No, he's devised another argument against it - he's just dodging around the question of existence by positing that nothing could be true without God. It's circular and only compelling to Christians. I actually agree with the point - but as an argument against atheism, it is a non-starter.

    The stupid title seems to assume that it's possible that you cannot refute atheism merely because you cannot prove the existence of God - empirically. But since the converse is also true, so what?
    Thanks for being the 37818 interpreter. I can't understand his posts half of the time.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    huh?

    Are you arguing FOR atheism now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    No, he's devised another argument against it - he's just dodging around the question of existence by positing that nothing could be true without God. It's circular and only compelling to Christians. I actually agree with the point - but as an argument against atheism, it is a non-starter.

    The stupid title seems to assume that it's possible that you cannot refute atheism merely because you cannot prove the existence of God - empirically. But since the converse is also true, so what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Thanks for being the 37818 interpreter. I can't understand his posts half of the time.
    The argument is simple, existence does not need proof.

    As for God, He has an identity. The first commandment of the ten is who God is: "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

    God`s identity being the self Existent existence, which is the meaning of His Name.

    The Apostle Paul said of God, "In Him we live and move and have our existence." (Acts 17:28a.)

    The God of Israel is invisible and omnipresent. And the Son of God is His visible agent by which we who are redeemed know God (John 14:6; John 1:12-14, 18; Colossians 1:15, 18; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Hebrews 1:3, John 1:3-4, 9-10).
    Last edited by 37818; 07-20-2018 at 12:18 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The argument is simple, existence does not need proof.

    As for God, He has an identity. The first commandment of the ten is who God is: "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

    God`s identity being the self Existent existence, which is the meaning of His Name.

    The Apostle Paul say of God, "in Him we live and move and have our existence." (Acts 17:28a.)

    The God of Israel is invisible and omnipresent. And the Son of God is His visible agent by which we who are redeemed know God (John 14:6; John 1:12-14, 18; Colossians 1:15, 18; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Hebrews 1:3, John 1:3-4, 9-10).
    all you did was state a claim "Existence doesn't need proof" and then list who God is. How is that an argument at all?

    I could just say:
    Existence doesn't need proof.
    Santa Claus lives at the North Pole and has a flying sleigh. He has elves that work for him and 8 tiny reindeer.

  7. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    all you did was state a claim "Existence doesn't need proof" and then list who God is. How is that an argument at all?
    Well, if you were to show someone the invisible God how would you do it. God being invisible and all?


    I could just say:
    Existence doesn't need proof.
    Santa Claus lives at the North Pole and has a flying sleigh. He has elves that work for him and 8 tiny reindeer.
    How would that show that the non-existent Santa Clause had a real existence?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    This is one of an endless chain of assertions by 37818 that his circular argument is conclusive, which it is only another version of the same circular argument to justify what he believes.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

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  10. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Stop that - you know I hate agreeing with you, Shuny!





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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The argument is simple, existence does not need proof.

    As for God, He has an identity. The first commandment of the ten is who God is: "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

    God`s identity being the self Existent existence, which is the meaning of His Name.

    The Apostle Paul said of God, "In Him we live and move and have our existence." (Acts 17:28a.)

    The God of Israel is invisible and omnipresent. And the Son of God is His visible agent by which we who are redeemed know God (John 14:6; John 1:12-14, 18; Colossians 1:15, 18; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Hebrews 1:3, John 1:3-4, 9-10).
    This is only convincing to those who already accept God's existence. That you don't accept Santa's existence doesn't make him non-existent - Sparky's right, the argument works just as well for Santa BECAUSE it starts with the a priori assumption of God's existence. It's just as valid to start with the assumption of Santa's existence when everyone already believes he exists.

    It's perfectly fine to begin with an a priori assumption as long as 1) it's not your conclusion and 2) everyone agrees with it. In this case, you're running into problems with that second one.

    You can only just assume God exists when arguing with other theists. It's not fair - or compelling - to argue that way with atheists and expect them to agree*.






































    *The one exception being when they accept the premise purely for the sake of arguing - that's necessary when arguing what God is like - about His nature.

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


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  13. Amen Rushing Jaws, shunyadragon amen'd this post.

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