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Thread: Atheism irrefutable.

  1. #21
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    It has existence. Uncaused existence. So unless uncaused Existence is not God, then yes, God being uncaused Existence would be the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident.
    Clarify - No, the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God from the human perspective.

    Bold is simply an assertion of belief from the human perspective, and is only true IF God exists, and not related to whether the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-21-2018 at 08:22 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

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    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    It has existence. Uncaused existence. So unless uncaused Existence is not God, then yes, God being uncaused Existence would be the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident.
    Er, you do know that abstract concepts may not have existence, right?

    Yet ANOTHER assumption you are just poking in there without finding out if anyone else has an issue with it...

  3. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Clarify - No, the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God from the human perspective.

    Bold is simply an assertion of belief, and not related to whether the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God
    Um, all you did was state the counter argument - your argument is just as much an unsupported assertion as his is - and just as circular.

  5. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Okay, I'll bite. Why does the concept of 1+1=2 need a god to exist in order to be true? Or is that even what you're saying?
    It wasn't what he was saying - but he's already dug himself deeper into this hole...


  7. #25
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The argument is simple, existence does not need proof.

    As for God, He has an identity. The first commandment of the ten is who God is: "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

    God`s identity being the self Existent existence, which is the meaning of His Name.

    The Apostle Paul said of God, "In Him we live and move and have our existence." (Acts 17:28a.)

    The God of Israel is invisible and omnipresent. And the Son of God is His visible agent by which we who are redeemed know God (John 14:6; John 1:12-14, 18; Colossians 1:15, 18; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Hebrews 1:3, John 1:3-4, 9-10).
    Your entire argument consists of assumptions...including the assumption that scriptural quotes are authoritative in and of themselves. They’re not. Assumptions need evidence to support them.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The argument is simple
    Yes, it is. Your argument is: "If I say it, then it is true." It doesn't get any simpler than that.

  9. #27
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Um, all you did was state the counter argument - your argument is just as much an unsupported assertion as his is - and just as circular.
    Actually no, I am not arguing for or against the existence of God.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #28
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The only thing that matters is the existence. Existence is what makes a thing true. Existence being is the sole reason 1 + 1 = 2.

    There is a fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident. The uncaused existence.
    Yes, but your identifying that uncaused existence as god is what's at question, so your assumption that a god is necessary in order that caused existences can be true is not an answer. Also, you're assuming that 1+1=2 is an existing thing, a caused thing. It isn't. Existence defines the math, which is abstract, math doesn't define existence.

  11. #29
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Step one, for starters - you have to have agreed upon assumptions OR you have to prove an assumption.
    Atheism irrefutable is a logically deduced system of belief as a basis that there cannot be any God or else that there is God and is what is really irrefutable here.

    * Step 1. Nothingness never existed. Anything to exist would not be nothingness. An existence is in evidence. And nothing can come from nothing.

    * Step 2. So therefore there was always something, an existence, an uncaused existence.

    Before we go beyond these two steps. What do you agree or disagree with them alone. And that an existence is in evidence, as is our using logic. We are presuming them from the very beginning without proofs.


    Your entire argument rests on the assumption of God's existence.
    False. My starting presumption is uncaused existence. Now uncaused existence needs no proof and can be deduced from steps 1 & 2. [As for God, I have an unfair advantage of knowing Him before I even proposed steps 1 & 2. No one can honestly deny a thing that one knows.] Step 3 is an either or argument. But you have to agree with steps 1 & 2 first.

    You are now in the position of having to find an atheist that will accept that premise as being true before beginning the argument.
    Not really. An atheist has two choices. 1) There are only caused existences [Which logically requires an uncaused existence.] Or 2) that there is an uncaused existence. Which again would bring us to step 3.

    Then you have to prove that second assumption about God not needing proof of His existence (I don't even see the point in granting this - it goes no where and while technically true as worded, it's moot since God does provide proof of His existence*. Lots of it.).
    Again, this has to do with step 3. And that [uncaused] existence needs no proof.

    In all classical arguments for proof of the "existence" of God, existence is presumed without its proof. Uncaused existence does not need any kind of God. [Part of the argument in step 3].

    Now we need to first agree on both steps 1 and then step 2.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  12. #30
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yes, but your identifying that uncaused existence as god is what's at question, so your assumption that a god is necessary in order that caused existences can be true is not an answer. Also, you're assuming that 1+1=2 is an existing thing, a caused thing. It isn't. Existence defines the math, which is abstract, math doesn't define existence.
    A number of issues here. 1) Uncaused existence is the reason that there is anything. Like 1 + 1 = 2.
    2) And uncaused cause is something other than uncaused existence even though both are uncaused. Cause requires an existence. Uncaused existence only requires itself.

    3) Now as to the question of God. For starters, uncaused existence needs no God. . . .
    Last edited by 37818; 07-22-2018 at 08:56 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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