Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Atheism irrefutable.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Faith.



    True as the sky is Carolina blue on the 4th of July on a clear day at noon.



    True. The fact that existence has 'caused things' does not preclude the existence of an uncaused multiverse.
    1) Nope, guess again.

    2) I thought you were agnostic? 2 is an atheist argument (and false ).

    3) 3 is as bad as his original thesis - it just hoists the problem elsewhere. If the universe (which really actually includes the multiverse but we'll do it the common way ) is caused then there's no rational reason to assume the multiverse (man, I hate this way ) is uncaused - or caused. The better case could be made for caused, I suppose, but it's still guessing what round squares look like.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

    Quill Sword

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      language is never objective. So? What is invisible and everywhere? Nothing?

      .
      Record records on a record.

      It's a legitimate sentence but how do you quantify it objectively? I used a single word with three possible meanings - can you prove I meant them a given way?

      Nope - because language isn't objective per se- it can be used objectively but it's not objective (same meaning) not an object (even 'objective' doesn't have a single meaning).

      Air is invisible and 'everywhere' we experience normally - nothing (noun) isn't invisible - it simply has no existence to be visible or invisible.

      The best analogy is that existence as we understand it might be nothing but a dream - having no physical substance or objective reality. This isn't my personal view but IS one of the possible views of what existence actually is.

      Sparky is looking at abstraction - where we give a symbol (word, sound, picture, whatever) that represents a thing or concept. This is also a problem for you. As he points out, philosophers are divided on whether numbers have a reality of their own (and more divided on whether it matters ). Why it matters for you is that you have got to take into account the assumptions of others IF you plan on your arguments being at all compelling, let alone convincing.

      I AGREE with you that God is the cause of all things - but this argument is so poor that even I wouldn't accept it.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Yeah, without giving any specific reason. Two things need to be dealt with. 1) What is the Christian claim for knowing God. 2) On the premise that there is not any God, it simply is not possible to know a non existent being.
        It is possible to BELIEVE one knows a non-existent being, as demonstrated by the multitude of gods and their devoted adherents throughout history.

        In order for there to be any such uncaused "multiverse" there has to be uncaused existence for it to be uncaused. And as it is our known universe is made up of many caused things. As I said, an uncaused existence does not need any kind of God.
        The "uncaused existence" may well be the eternal multiverse itself. That is the more parsimonious explanation rather than invoking a deity.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          It is possible to BELIEVE one knows a non-existent being, as demonstrated by the multitude of gods and their devoted adherents throughout history.
          No.


          The "uncaused existence" may well be the eternal multiverse itself. That is the more parsimonious explanation rather than invoking a deity.
          No. Because one is a single thing, the other [this supposed multiverse] is more than a single thing. As it is our known universe is not just one thing. Rocks exist, but they are not the space, nor are they what all other things must have. Spacetime has a measured beginning. What would be uncaused would not.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post


            Not touching it, Bible is confused enough as it is....


            (Pssst! A little more metaphysical, actually - your's works but isn't what I actually meant.)
            I don't listen to people who don't exist. Until you can prove you do, I can't hear you!


            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Record records on a record.

              It's a legitimate sentence but how do you quantify it objectively? I used a single word with three possible meanings - can you prove I meant them a given way?

              Nope - because language isn't objective per se- it can be used objectively but it's not objective (same meaning) not an object (even 'objective' doesn't have a single meaning).

              Air is invisible and 'everywhere' we experience normally - nothing (noun) isn't invisible - it simply has no existence to be visible or invisible.

              The best analogy is that existence as we understand it might be nothing but a dream - having no physical substance or objective reality. This isn't my personal view but IS one of the possible views of what existence actually is.

              Sparky is looking at abstraction - where we give a symbol (word, sound, picture, whatever) that represents a thing or concept. This is also a problem for you. As he points out, philosophers are divided on whether numbers have a reality of their own (and more divided on whether it matters ). Why it matters for you is that you have got to take into account the assumptions of others IF you plan on your arguments being at all compelling, let alone convincing.

              I AGREE with you that God is the cause of all things - but this argument is so poor that even I wouldn't accept it.
              Cause needs existence. Uncaused existence does not have a cause. Existence is one thing, a cause is something else in that it needs existence.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #67
                Something here needs to be noted. Uncaused existence is eternal. A cause in order to be a cause must be finite and temporal.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Something here needs to be noted. Uncaused existence is eternal. A cause in order to be a cause must be finite and temporal.
                  Isn't God the cause of the universe? He isn't finite or temporal.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Isn't God the cause of the universe? He isn't finite or temporal.
                    Ok. Based on what I had explained, what would it tell you about an uncaused cause?
                    Uncaused is eternal. And a cause is . . .
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      No.
                      Nonsense! Human history is replete with multitudinous gods in which people were certain existed and to whom they offered prayers and made sacrifices.

                      No. Because one is a single thing, the other [this supposed multiverse] is more than a single thing. As it is our known universe is not just one thing. Rocks exist, but they are not the space, nor are they what all other things must have. Spacetime has a measured beginning. What would be uncaused would not.
                      The idea of an infinite multitude of universes is forced on us by physics. There is more evidence for the existence of an eternal, infinite multiverse than there is for an eternal deity. To argue the latter is just an 'Argument from Ignorance'.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Cause needs existence. Uncaused existence does not have a cause. Existence is one thing, a cause is something else in that it needs existence.
                        Sigh - prove existence. If you can't - and you can't - then it's an assumption.

                        Metaphysics: it's not for wimps.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Isn't God the cause of the universe? He isn't finite or temporal.
                          Stop confusing him - he's actually right (and yes, in answer to your question) from the Christian POV. The problem is that he's still not got any common ground to argue with atheists from - which is what he was originally trying to do.


                          Of course, 'stop confusing him' might be asking a bit much from anyone...
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            Stop confusing him - he's actually right (...) from the Christian POV.
                            Seriously? Are there any other Christians -or indeed anyone- who believe(s) that a cause in order to be a cause must be finite and temporal?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
                              Seriously? Are there any other Christians -or indeed anyone- who believe(s) that a cause in order to be a cause must be finite and temporal?
                              Um, what?

                              I'll look in the morning. That's not what I understood.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                So you believe one can meet someone by merely believing one did.
                                Needs clarification. It does not make sense.

                                So you think mere existence is cause.
                                IT is possible that natural law and the nature of our physical existence is the cause of our 'mere?' existence.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                31 responses
                                108 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                79 responses
                                421 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post alaskazimm  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X