Op Ed by Will Hurd, Republican, On Trump

[oxmixmudd]

I'm not sure a former CIA operative has any grounds to complain about someone else doing this.

The issue is not whether or not both governments have assets and manipulate them. The issue is that Trump's behavior is consistent with Trump himself being such a person!

Jim

[rogue06]

The issue is not whether or not both governments have assets and manipulate them. The issue is that Trump's behavior is consistent with Trump himself being such a person!

Jim

Look at how Trump addressed British PM May in private and then in public. Scolding and maybe even berating in the former and all smiles and praise in the latter.

[Mountain Man]

It was not subservient behavior rogue, it's a customary sign of respect which many presidents in the past, Nixon, Eisenhower, Clinton, George Bush, all understood and did. The problem is that you are under the spell of Fox News et el and simply, thoughtlessly, believe and parrot whatever they tell you to believe and parrot.

So you think the Japanese emperor was wrong to consider Obama's deep bow to be an embarrassingly subservient way for one head of state to greet another? Sure, Jimmy, you go ahead and explain the finer points of Japanese culture to the head of Japan. If it wasn't intentional on Obama's part then you have to at least concede that it was a colossal cultural gaffe that caught even Obama's own advisers off guard and left them scrambling for an explanation, such as the "He was just trying to look them in the eye" excuse which the liberal media dutifully reported without question.

[rogue06]

So you think the Japanese emperor was wrong to consider Obama's deep bow to be an embarrassingly subservient way for one head of state to greet another? Sure, Jimmy, you go ahead and explain the finer points of Japanese culture to the head of Japan. If it wasn't intentional on Obama's part then you have to at least concede that it was a colossal cultural gaffe that caught even Obama's own advisers off guard and left them bscrambling for an explanation (such as the "He was just trying to look them in the eye" excuse).

And the next time Obama was doing a much closer approximation of the appropriate eshaku bow

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[Charles]

Sure, that's one way to spin. It's not an especially accurate or informed way, but it is one way.

I note the interesting fact that the guy blaming me for spinning and who talks about an accurate and informed way gives us not a single fact and not a single reason to follow his line of thinking. I think it is rather obvious that he does not wish his readers to look at this in an informed way.

[Terraceth]

Which was why the Japanese media was mentioning that their emperor was actually embarrassed for Obama wrt his subservient behavior.

That's interesting. Do you have a source for this?

[rogue06]

That's interesting. Do you have a source for this?

There was a good deal said about this at the time but most Japanese sources on the internet a decade later are in Japanese

[rogue06]

That's interesting. Do you have a source for this?

There was a good deal said about this at the time but most Japanese sources on the internet a decade later are in Japanese. Currently all I see is it being called "awkward" because he bowed and shook hands at the same time which goes against custom (it's either or, not both) although it does mention "Obama's low bow before the emperor."

[rogue06]

There was a good deal said about this at the time but most Japanese sources on the internet a decade later are in Japanese. Currently all I see is it being called "awkward" because he bowed and shook hands at the same time which goes against custom (it's either or, not both) although it does mention "Obama's low bow before the emperor."

ETA: Apparently Jack Tapper of ABC reported that at least one of the country's newspapers refused to print any photos of Obama's bow because it was embarrassing, not to Obama, but to the Japanese people.

I found mention of some of what he reported on his blog (since deleted but available via the Internet Archive's 'Wayback Machine'):

Source: On President Obama's Bow to the Japanese Emperor, An Academic Friend Writes That Both the Left and the Right Are Wrong

An old friend -- an academic with expertise about the Japanese Empire, and in general a supporter of President Obama -- sends me the following note, relating to photographs of President Obama bowing to Emperor Akihito of Japan.

"This picture shows two things," my friend writes.

"1) The 'right' is wrong about Obama's bow.

"2) The 'left' is wrong about Obama's bow.

"His bow is neither (1) unprecedented nor (2) a sign of cultural understanding.

"At their 1971 meeting in Alaska, the first visit of a Japanese Emperor to America, President Nixon bowed and referred to Emperor Hirohito and his wife repeatedly as 'Your Imperial Majesties.'"

"Yet, (and?) Nixon gets the bow right. Slight arch from the waist hands at his side.

"Obama's handshake/forward lurch was so jarring and inappropriate it recalls Bush's back-rub of Merkel.

"Kyodo News is running his appropriate and reciprocated nod and shake with the Empress, certainly to show the president as dignified, and not in the form of a first year English teacher trying to impress with Karate Kid-level knowledge of Japanese customs.

"The bow as he performed did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms....The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak looking American president and, again, in all ways, he unintentionally played that part.

"BTW, Obama's bow at Suntory Hall was much better. Correct angle, slight bow. His hands were wrong but the physical tone was correct and appropriate.

"But if Obama can get the dollar to stop bowing to the Yen I take it all back."



Source

© Copyright Original Source

The comments by Tapper's unnamed expert on Japan were only a portion of the original report.

I found another interesting mention of the whole bowing thing wrt to Diane Sawyer's coverage of it on Good Morning America compared to other presidents and protocol

Source: ABC Omits Critics of Obama’s ‘Jarring and Inappropriate’ Bow to Emperor; Sawyer Says Dealing with Royalty ‘Just Too Confusing’

DIANE SAWYER: And before we leave the topic of the president's trip overseas I've often thought the hardest subject for every President, what do you do with royalty? We're not trained to greet royalty since 1776. [Onscreen photo of Obama bowing.] The President, as we saw with the emperor, went the full way, lots of comment about that. But we look back over the years and you have, of course, George Bush, former president George Bush Sr. there, head nod. There was Ronald Reagan, hand shake. [Pictures appear onscreen.]

ROBIN ROBERTS: Hand shake. That’s always good.

SAWYER: Richard Nixon went from the waist [Nixon appears to be leaning in.] and Bill Clinton, what was that? [Picture of Clinton clasping his hands, could be clapping.] Kind of yoga thing there. Anyway who can blame them for not knowing what to do? Allegedly, Teddy Roosevelt said once “If I see another king I'm going to bite him.” It's just too confusing when you're American.

That Teddy Roosevelt quote, by the way, came from a 1994 New York Times “Week in Review” item that made the rounds this weekend after Obama’s bow. If Sawyer read the whole item -- related the controversy over then-President Clinton’s much milder bow before the Emperor -- she would have learned that there’s not that much “confusion” over American protocol. According to the Times (then): “the ‘thou need not bow’ commandment from the State Department's protocol office maintained a constancy of more than 200 years.”

A Washington Post item from that same week (retrieved via Nexis) quoted Clinton’s top protocol officer talking about the arrangements for Emperor Akihito’s state visit to Washington: “‘Americans do not bow,’ said Chief of Protocol Molly Raiser. ‘The emperor is known to shake hands. This emperor is much more informal than his father was.’”



Source

© Copyright Original Source

I bring this one up primarily for the Chief of Protocol under Clinton comment: “‘Americans do not bow,’ said Chief of Protocol Molly Raiser. ‘The emperor is known to shake hands. This emperor is much more informal than his father was.’”

I'll keep poking around but it's not going to be easy not having access to primary sources like when I could still use a LexisNexis search and wrote about all this prior to the crash.

[One Bad Pig]

Perhaps Republicans could nominate/elect more intelligent and less criminal people in future? Or would that be asking too much?

Well, that's one way to spin it....

[oxmixmudd]

So you think the Japanese emperor was wrong to consider Obama's deep bow to be an embarrassingly subservient way for one head of state to greet another? Sure, Jimmy, you go ahead and explain the finer points of Japanese culture to the head of Japan. If it wasn't intentional on Obama's part then you have to at least concede that it was a colossal cultural gaffe that caught even Obama's own advisers off guard and left them scrambling for an explanation, such as the "He was just trying to look them in the eye" excuse which the liberal media dutifully reported without question.

There is a massive difference between a mistake in protocol, one culture to another, and behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government. Trump's behavior is relative to his own culture and is being observed by his own culture.

Secondly, it's a rabbit trail. The issue here is that the president of the United states may well be compromised by the russian government. It is a serious problem. Of far more concern to us and the world than an error executing a cultural courtesy in a friendly nation.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Look at how Trump addressed British PM May in private and then in public. Scolding and maybe even berating in the former and all smiles and praise in the latter.

There is no valid comparison here. Trump brought out of this meeting a positive attitude towards a suggestion that the us turn over us citizens and diplomats to be interrogated by russia. He thought it was a good idea. He did not refuse it privately or publically. Further he publically put putins declaration of innocence in election interference above the unanimous conclusion of all us intelligence on the matter. Trump was not merely polite to putin. He deferred to him publically and all indications are privately as well as regards what has so far been made public about it.

Jim

[rogue06]

There is a massive difference between a mistake in protocol, one culture to another, and behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government. Trump's behavior is relative to his own culture and is being observed by his own culture.

Secondly, it's a rabbit trail. The issue here is that the president of the United states may well be compromised by the russian government. It is a serious problem. Of far more concern to us and the world than an error executing a cultural courtesy in a friendly nation.

Jim

Does that "behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government" include

• accusing Russia of deploying land-based cruise missiles saying that they violated the "spirit and intent" of the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty -- something Obama refused to do?
• bombing Syria's Shayrat Airbase (Russia's allies) when they use chemical weapons in 2017?
• again bombing Syrian forces in 2018 killing over 200 Russian "mercenaries"?
• trying to get Merkel to stop importing natural gas from Russia which would deal a serious blow to the Russian economy?
• sending weapons, including a bunch of anti-tank missiles, to Ukraine so they can fight the Russians?
• imposing stricter sanctions^[1] than those initially called for by Congress including imposing sanctions on Ramzan Kadyrov, a close Putin ally?
• ordering the expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and closure of Russian consulate in Seattle in response to Russia's poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal (Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov declared that the expulsion of the total of 153 Russian diplomats by 28 countries was the result of the Trump Administration "blackmailing" other nations)?

1. to be fair this has been a bit of a mixed bag in that earlier Trump expressed reluctance about enforcing some sanctions that he had signed into law.

[rogue06]

There is no valid comparison here.

Sorry Jim but you are wrong here. You specifically asked if Trump was "consistent" in behaving very differently in public meetings and private ones. He does. Something even CNN's Christiane Amanpour even acknowledged.

[Mountain Man]

There is a massive difference between a mistake in protocol, one culture to another, and behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government. Trump's behavior is relative to his own culture and is being observed by his own culture.

Secondly, it's a rabbit trail. The issue here is that the president of the United states may well be compromised by the russian government. It is a serious problem. Of far more concern to us and the world than an error executing a cultural courtesy in a friendly nation.

Jim