Originally posted by rogue06
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Op Ed by Will Hurd, Republican, On Trump
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“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostDoes that "behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government" include
[list][*]accusing Russia of deploying land-based cruise missiles saying that they violated the "spirit and intent" of the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty -- something Obama refused to do?[*]bombing Syria's Shayrat Airbase (Russia's allies) when they use chemical weapons in 2017?[*]again bombing Syrian forces in 2018 killing over 200 Russian "mercenaries"? [*]trying to get Merkel to stop importing natural gas from Russia which would deal a serious blow to the Russian economy?[*]sending weapons, including a bunch of anti-tank missiles, to Ukraine so they can fight the Russians?[*]imposing stricter sanctions[1] than those initially called for by Congress including imposing sanctions on Ramzan Kadyrov, a close Putin ally?[*]ordering the expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and closure of Russian consulate in Seattle in response to Russia's poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal (Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov declared that the expulsion of the total of 153 Russian diplomats by 28 countries was the result of the Trump Administration "blackmailing" other nations)?
1. to be fair this has been a bit of a mixed bag in that earlier Trump expressed reluctance about enforcing some sanctions that he had signed into law.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSorry Jim but you are wrong here. You specifically asked if Trump was "consistent" in behaving very differently in public meetings and private ones. He does. Something even CNN's Christiane Amanpour even acknowledged.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIt was not subservient behavior rogue, it's a customary sign of respect which many presidents in the past, Nixon, Eisenhower, Clinton, George Bush, all understood and did. The problem is that you are under the spell of Fox News et el and simply, thoughtlessly, believe and parrot whatever they tell you to believe and parrot."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostDoes that "behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government" include
- accusing Russia of deploying land-based cruise missiles saying that they violated the "spirit and intent" of the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty -- something Obama refused to do?
- bombing Syria's Shayrat Airbase (Russia's allies) when they use chemical weapons in 2017?
- again bombing Syrian forces in 2018 killing over 200 Russian "mercenaries"?
- trying to get Merkel to stop importing natural gas from Russia which would deal a serious blow to the Russian economy?
- sending weapons, including a bunch of anti-tank missiles, to Ukraine so they can fight the Russians?
- imposing stricter sanctions[1] than those initially called for by Congress including imposing sanctions on Ramzan Kadyrov, a close Putin ally?
- ordering the expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and closure of Russian consulate in Seattle in response to Russia's poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal (Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov declared that the expulsion of the total of 153 Russian diplomats by 28 countries was the result of the Trump Administration "blackmailing" other nations)?
1. to be fair this has been a bit of a mixed bag in that earlier Trump expressed reluctance about enforcing some sanctions that he had signed into law.
During the time from the poisoning to this response, over and over again Trump made excuses until no more excuses could possibly be made, and then reluctantly he had no choice but to respond.
Trumps responses to syria at first made me think maybe there was in fact something positive there I was missing. But while they have some impact on Russian relations they are more likely direct responses to his own rhetoric against IRAN than an indication of him taking a strong stance against Russia, or perhaps he was genuinely moved by what happened there and responded w/o thinking too much about the Russian consequences. What I do remember about it is that the response was considered a bit weak, more a bit of show that any real deterrent.
And the sale of anti-tank weapons to Ukraine is also a mixed bag. First, as part of the deal, the missiles are stored hundreds of miles from where the russian tanks are, making them not of much immediate use.
Sanctions against Russian Oligarchs?
NATO also is a mixed bag. Putin want's nothing more than to destabilize or eliminate the NATO alliance. It has been and continues to be 'in his way' So far Trump's antics with NATO have significantly reduced confidence in the US commitment to it. He has threatened to withdraw from it, questioned its usefulness, and told the NATO nations to 'put up or shut up' in so many words. So - what is Trump up to here? Is he pushing on Merckel to reduce Russian imports to get them to weaken their relationship with Russia, or is he pushing Germany away from the US (weakening NATO). Is Trump demanding more spending from NATO members to make NATO stronger, more of a problem for Russia, or is he driving a wedge between the US and our NATO partners which ultimately weakens NATO and plays into Putin's larger goals.
So far, the NATO issue looks more destructive, more in the direction of Putin's wish list than Putin's nightmare. But we will have to wait a while to definitively know how this pans out.
What is clear is that in each case you mention that might be taken as evidence to the contrary of Hurd's conclusion, there is ambiguity, reluctance, or special conditions that take any real teeth out of the action as it relates to Russia, allowing Trump a show, but no real effect.
Which brings us back to Helsinki. And which brings us back to the OP. The current observation and question ringing around the world is 'What hold does Putin have on Trump'. Hurds editorial does not sit in a vacuum but rises from a Republican and a former CIA operative who has in light of event after event and oddity after oddity come the the conclusion there is just no way it all can exist without a cause. And what he sees is a man under Putin's thumb. A person compromised by the Russian Government.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 07-21-2018, 11:15 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostDid they? Links please. AFAICT Obama's bow to emperor only caused outrage in Washington among partisan hacks like you. Certainly it's not to be compared with the trail of destruction Trump left behind in the EU, Britain and NATO before grovelling to Putin at Helsinki.
In contrast to the gasps and incredulity across the world at Trumps real deference to a the most significant real enemy of free democracies in the world.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIndeed. As I pointed out. Obama may have in attempting to show the Japanese (our ALLY) respect made himself look personally foolish. But no-one would understand this as anything other than a mistake in ceremony, not an actual act of deference.
In contrast to the gasps and incredulity across the world at Trumps real deference to a the most significant real enemy of free democracies in the world. Jim“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHmm, didn't you come up with that same excuse in defense off Obama's so called apology tour? Oh no, you didn't, did you? You're just trying to justify to yourself your support for the traitor Sparko.Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSo Obama was really was working behind the scenes against the Japanese when he bowed as deeply as a servant would to their emperor?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29006[/ATTACH]Originally posted by JimL View PostIt was not subservient behavior rogue, it's a customary sign of respect which many presidents in the past, Nixon, Eisenhower, Clinton, George Bush, all understood and did. The problem is that you are under the spell of Fox News et el and simply, thoughtlessly, believe and parrot whatever they tell you to believe and parrot.Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe deep bow from the waist is only for servants.
Here is an illustration showing the three types of bows
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29042[/ATTACH]
The first is typical among equals. Here is someone and his superior (on the right if you can't tell) bowing to each other
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29043[/ATTACH]
But Obama went even deeper than the servant's bow, between 50 and 60 degrees
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29044[/ATTACH]Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThere is a massive difference between a mistake in protocol, one culture to another, and behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government. Trump's behavior is relative to his own culture and is being observed by his own culture.
Secondly, it's a rabbit trail. The issue here is that the president of the United states may well be compromised by the russian government. It is a serious problem. Of far more concern to us and the world than an error executing a cultural courtesy in a friendly nation.
Jim
Mind you, a bunch of us chipped in so the derail isn't entirely on them.Last edited by Teallaura; 07-21-2018, 11:36 PM."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostEr, you do realize your issue is with the other Jim and Rogue, right? Jim L brought up the apology tour - that lead directly to the parallel Rogue offered - both Rogue and MM were refuting Jim.
Mind you, a bunch of us chipped in so the derail isn't entirely on them.
And teal honestly, you have quotes from 3 people here, yet you have adressed 'you' which in this case then could refer to one of us, any two of us, or all three of us. And unfortunately I can't from the context reduce it to just one of those six options.
It seems you are talking to me, but that doesn't quite make sense either because, again, I was responding to roguess quoting my post. Now perhaps he meant to quote a post of Jim L's? I mostly was sort of ignoring the derail except for rogues' response to me
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 07-22-2018, 08:39 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe deep bow from the waist is only for servants.
Here is an illustration showing the three types of bows
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29042[/ATTACH]
The first is typical among equals. Here is someone and his superior (on the right if you can't tell) bowing to each other
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29043[/ATTACH]
But Obama went even deeper than the servant's bow, between 50 and 60 degrees
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29044[/ATTACH]
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSo you think the Japanese emperor was wrong to consider Obama's deep bow to be an embarrassingly subservient way for one head of state to greet another? Sure, Jimmy, you go ahead and explain the finer points of Japanese culture to the head of Japan. If it wasn't intentional on Obama's part then you have to at least concede that it was a colossal cultural gaffe that caught even Obama's own advisers off guard and left them scrambling for an explanation, such as the "He was just trying to look them in the eye" excuse which the liberal media dutifully reported without question.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostEr, Jim, the Japanese have very particular rules of etiquette for bowing - I'm pretty sure the Japanese emperor - and their media, for that matter - would be familiar enough with the rules to correctly assess what Obama did. the best argument is that he simply messed it up - which shifts the blame to his idiot protocol experts. But telling the Japanese that they don't understand their own customs is kinda dumb.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe response of mine you quote here was in response to a post where rogue quoted me, not Jim L
And teal honestly, you have quotes from 3 people here, yet you have adressed 'you' which in this case then could refer to one of us, any two of us, or all three of us. And unfortunately I can't from the context reduce it to just one of those six options.
It seems you are talking to me, but that doesn't quite make sense either because, again, I was responding to roguess quoting my post. Now perhaps he meant to quote a post of Jim L's? I mostly was sort of ignoring the derail except for rogues' response to me
Jim
As a general comment, I hate that multiquote won't turn itself off once the post is complete."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHmm, didn't you come up with that same excuse in defense off Obama's so called apology tour? Oh no, you didn't, did you? You're just trying to justify to yourself your support for the traitor Sparko.Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSo Obama was really was working behind the scenes against the Japanese when he bowed as deeply as a servant would to their emperor?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29006[/ATTACH]Originally posted by JimL View PostIt was not subservient behavior rogue, it's a customary sign of respect which many presidents in the past, Nixon, Eisenhower, Clinton, George Bush, all understood and did. The problem is that you are under the spell of Fox News et el and simply, thoughtlessly, believe and parrot whatever they tell you to believe and parrot.Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe deep bow from the waist is only for servants.
Here is an illustration showing the three types of bows
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29042[/ATTACH]
The first is typical among equals. Here is someone and his superior (on the right if you can't tell) bowing to each other
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29043[/ATTACH]
But Obama went even deeper than the servant's bow, between 50 and 60 degrees
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29044[/ATTACH]Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, Republicans making an issue out of it is what's dumb. Actually let me rephrase that, the republican constituency believing it to be an issue makes them look like the fools, not Obama."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI suggest you wise up and stop acting the stooge.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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