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Op Ed by Will Hurd, Republican, On Trump

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  • #46
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Which was why the Japanese media was mentioning that their emperor was actually embarrassed for Obama wrt his subservient behavior.
    Did they? Links please. AFAICT Obama's bow to emperor only caused outrage in Washington among partisan hacks like you. Certainly it's not to be compared with the trail of destruction Trump left behind in the EU, Britain and NATO before grovelling to Putin at Helsinki.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Does that "behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government" include
      [list][*]accusing Russia of deploying land-based cruise missiles saying that they violated the "spirit and intent" of the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty -- something Obama refused to do?[*]bombing Syria's Shayrat Airbase (Russia's allies) when they use chemical weapons in 2017?[*]again bombing Syrian forces in 2018 killing over 200 Russian "mercenaries"? [*]trying to get Merkel to stop importing natural gas from Russia which would deal a serious blow to the Russian economy?[*]sending weapons, including a bunch of anti-tank missiles, to Ukraine so they can fight the Russians?[*]imposing stricter sanctions[1] than those initially called for by Congress including imposing sanctions on Ramzan Kadyrov, a close Putin ally?[*]ordering the expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and closure of Russian consulate in Seattle in response to Russia's poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal (Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov declared that the expulsion of the total of 153 Russian diplomats by 28 countries was the result of the Trump Administration "blackmailing" other nations)?
      1. to be fair this has been a bit of a mixed bag in that earlier Trump expressed reluctance about enforcing some sanctions that he had signed into law.
      Yeah right. This is why Russia's Foreign minister Sergei Lavrov says the Putin-Trump meeting in Helsinki was 'better than super' and hailed the 'fabulous' summit. Traitor Trump must have been REALLY tough. <sarcasm>
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Sorry Jim but you are wrong here. You specifically asked if Trump was "consistent" in behaving very differently in public meetings and private ones. He does. Something even CNN's Christiane Amanpour even acknowledged.
        No I didn't. Not in this thread. Below I list every sentence of mine up to the response to mountain man you are trying to correct. Show me where I asked that or anything like that:

        Source: Jim


        Will Hurd is a Republican Senator for the state of Texas, and not one that is planning to retire. He is also a former CIA operative, so he both knows what he is talking about, and hails from a conservative position from one of the most conservative states in the Union:

        he continues ...

        I think it a bit foolish to ignore the assessment of a former CIA operative who has observed people that are being manipulated by the Russian government. It does appear that most of you posting along these lines are in a similar mindset to the YEC where all facts contrary to what you want to think are true are necessarily part of a vast and evil conspiracy to hide the truth. Or perhaps so hopelessly biased as,to be safely ignored.

        This fellow is conservative, a republican, and a former operative very familiar with these sorts of things. Further, as a republican in the house he has little reason to want to say something like this and many reasons to keep silent. Which implies isn't just some mild hunch. He must be nearly certain this is what is going on.

        The issue is not whether or not both governments have assets and manipulate them. The issue is that Trump's behavior is consistent with Trump himself being such a person!

        © Copyright Original Source






        Jim
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          It was not subservient behavior rogue, it's a customary sign of respect which many presidents in the past, Nixon, Eisenhower, Clinton, George Bush, all understood and did. The problem is that you are under the spell of Fox News et el and simply, thoughtlessly, believe and parrot whatever they tell you to believe and parrot.
          Er, Jim, the Japanese have very particular rules of etiquette for bowing - I'm pretty sure the Japanese emperor - and their media, for that matter - would be familiar enough with the rules to correctly assess what Obama did. the best argument is that he simply messed it up - which shifts the blame to his idiot protocol experts. But telling the Japanese that they don't understand their own customs is kinda dumb.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Does that "behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government" include
            • accusing Russia of deploying land-based cruise missiles saying that they violated the "spirit and intent" of the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty -- something Obama refused to do?
            • bombing Syria's Shayrat Airbase (Russia's allies) when they use chemical weapons in 2017?
            • again bombing Syrian forces in 2018 killing over 200 Russian "mercenaries"?
            • trying to get Merkel to stop importing natural gas from Russia which would deal a serious blow to the Russian economy?
            • sending weapons, including a bunch of anti-tank missiles, to Ukraine so they can fight the Russians?
            • imposing stricter sanctions[1] than those initially called for by Congress including imposing sanctions on Ramzan Kadyrov, a close Putin ally?
            • ordering the expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats and closure of Russian consulate in Seattle in response to Russia's poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal (Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov declared that the expulsion of the total of 153 Russian diplomats by 28 countries was the result of the Trump Administration "blackmailing" other nations)?









            1. to be fair this has been a bit of a mixed bag in that earlier Trump expressed reluctance about enforcing some sanctions that he had signed into law.
            Let's start with the last one. Trump hemmed and hawed and was silent about the incursion onto British soil by the Russians through the use of a nerve agent in a public place in an attempted assassination until forced to respond by the those around him. Consider this headline from the time which characterizes the event and the exasperation of the world at Trump's lengthy and virtually inexplicable lack of response:

            Source: nytimes


            Britain Accuses Russia of Poisoning—Trump Won't Agree
            A normal White House would have rushed to its ally’s defense by now.

            © Copyright Original Source



            During the time from the poisoning to this response, over and over again Trump made excuses until no more excuses could possibly be made, and then reluctantly he had no choice but to respond.


            Trumps responses to syria at first made me think maybe there was in fact something positive there I was missing. But while they have some impact on Russian relations they are more likely direct responses to his own rhetoric against IRAN than an indication of him taking a strong stance against Russia, or perhaps he was genuinely moved by what happened there and responded w/o thinking too much about the Russian consequences. What I do remember about it is that the response was considered a bit weak, more a bit of show that any real deterrent.

            And the sale of anti-tank weapons to Ukraine is also a mixed bag. First, as part of the deal, the missiles are stored hundreds of miles from where the russian tanks are, making them not of much immediate use.

            Source: the Atlantic

            But the terms of the arrangement show it may be more bark than bite. The weapons “have been delivered to a secure facility in Ukraine, not on the line of conflict,” Kurt Volker, the U.S. Special Representative for Ukraine, told me. He did not elaborate further, but The Wall Street Journal reported in January that the weapons would be stored in training centers in western Ukraine that will be monitored by American soldiers.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Sanctions against Russian Oligarchs?

            Source: the Atlantic

            The Treasury Department recently sanctioned more than three dozen Russian oligarchs, officials, and entities who “profit” from Russia’s “malign activity” and “corrupt system.” But many of the sanctioned oligarchs had four months’ notice to move their money, thanks to a list of Russia’s wealthiest individuals released by the Treasury in January. That money might already be back in Russia. “As they say, ‘a barking dog cannot hinder a caravan’s journey,’” Putin told Russia’s TASS news agency at the time. He mocked his own absence from the list. When UN Ambassador Nikki Haley announced new sanctions against Russia over its support for embattled Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, she was contradicted by the White House hours later.

            © Copyright Original Source



            NATO also is a mixed bag. Putin want's nothing more than to destabilize or eliminate the NATO alliance. It has been and continues to be 'in his way' So far Trump's antics with NATO have significantly reduced confidence in the US commitment to it. He has threatened to withdraw from it, questioned its usefulness, and told the NATO nations to 'put up or shut up' in so many words. So - what is Trump up to here? Is he pushing on Merckel to reduce Russian imports to get them to weaken their relationship with Russia, or is he pushing Germany away from the US (weakening NATO). Is Trump demanding more spending from NATO members to make NATO stronger, more of a problem for Russia, or is he driving a wedge between the US and our NATO partners which ultimately weakens NATO and plays into Putin's larger goals.

            So far, the NATO issue looks more destructive, more in the direction of Putin's wish list than Putin's nightmare. But we will have to wait a while to definitively know how this pans out.

            What is clear is that in each case you mention that might be taken as evidence to the contrary of Hurd's conclusion, there is ambiguity, reluctance, or special conditions that take any real teeth out of the action as it relates to Russia, allowing Trump a show, but no real effect.


            Which brings us back to Helsinki. And which brings us back to the OP. The current observation and question ringing around the world is 'What hold does Putin have on Trump'. Hurds editorial does not sit in a vacuum but rises from a Republican and a former CIA operative who has in light of event after event and oddity after oddity come the the conclusion there is just no way it all can exist without a cause. And what he sees is a man under Putin's thumb. A person compromised by the Russian Government.


            Jim
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-21-2018, 11:15 PM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Did they? Links please. AFAICT Obama's bow to emperor only caused outrage in Washington among partisan hacks like you. Certainly it's not to be compared with the trail of destruction Trump left behind in the EU, Britain and NATO before grovelling to Putin at Helsinki.
              Indeed. As I pointed out. Obama may have in attempting to show the Japanese (our ALLY) respect made himself look personally foolish. But no-one would understand this as anything other than a mistake in ceremony, not an actual act of deference.

              In contrast to the gasps and incredulity across the world at Trumps real deference to a the most significant real enemy of free democracies in the world.

              Jim
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Indeed. As I pointed out. Obama may have in attempting to show the Japanese (our ALLY) respect made himself look personally foolish. But no-one would understand this as anything other than a mistake in ceremony, not an actual act of deference.

                In contrast to the gasps and incredulity across the world at Trumps real deference to a the most significant real enemy of free democracies in the world. Jim
                Sadly it is many of your fellow brothers in Christ that put Trump into power in the first place. And they are keeping him there by defending his behaviour, despite the growing evidence of Trump-Russia collusion.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Hmm, didn't you come up with that same excuse in defense off Obama's so called apology tour? Oh no, you didn't, did you? You're just trying to justify to yourself your support for the traitor Sparko.
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  So Obama was really was working behind the scenes against the Japanese when he bowed as deeply as a servant would to their emperor?

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29006[/ATTACH]
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  It was not subservient behavior rogue, it's a customary sign of respect which many presidents in the past, Nixon, Eisenhower, Clinton, George Bush, all understood and did. The problem is that you are under the spell of Fox News et el and simply, thoughtlessly, believe and parrot whatever they tell you to believe and parrot.
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  The deep bow from the waist is only for servants.

                  Here is an illustration showing the three types of bows

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29042[/ATTACH]



                  The first is typical among equals. Here is someone and his superior (on the right if you can't tell) bowing to each other

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29043[/ATTACH]



                  But Obama went even deeper than the servant's bow, between 50 and 60 degrees

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29044[/ATTACH]
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  There is a massive difference between a mistake in protocol, one culture to another, and behaving as one that is compromisd by the Russian government. Trump's behavior is relative to his own culture and is being observed by his own culture.

                  Secondly, it's a rabbit trail. The issue here is that the president of the United states may well be compromised by the russian government. It is a serious problem. Of far more concern to us and the world than an error executing a cultural courtesy in a friendly nation.

                  Jim
                  Er, you do realize your issue is with the other Jim and Rogue, right? Jim L brought up the apology tour - that lead directly to the parallel Rogue offered - both Rogue and MM were refuting Jim.


                  Mind you, a bunch of us chipped in so the derail isn't entirely on them.
                  Last edited by Teallaura; 07-21-2018, 11:36 PM.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Er, you do realize your issue is with the other Jim and Rogue, right? Jim L brought up the apology tour - that lead directly to the parallel Rogue offered - both Rogue and MM were refuting Jim.


                    Mind you, a bunch of us chipped in so the derail isn't entirely on them.
                    The response of mine you quote here was in response to a post where rogue quoted me, not Jim L

                    And teal honestly, you have quotes from 3 people here, yet you have adressed 'you' which in this case then could refer to one of us, any two of us, or all three of us. And unfortunately I can't from the context reduce it to just one of those six options.

                    It seems you are talking to me, but that doesn't quite make sense either because, again, I was responding to roguess quoting my post. Now perhaps he meant to quote a post of Jim L's? I mostly was sort of ignoring the derail except for rogues' response to me

                    Jim
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-22-2018, 08:39 AM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      The deep bow from the waist is only for servants.

                      Here is an illustration showing the three types of bows

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]29042[/ATTACH]



                      The first is typical among equals. Here is someone and his superior (on the right if you can't tell) bowing to each other

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]29043[/ATTACH]



                      But Obama went even deeper than the servant's bow, between 50 and 60 degrees

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]29044[/ATTACH]
                      I suggest you wise up and stop acting the stooge.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        So you think the Japanese emperor was wrong to consider Obama's deep bow to be an embarrassingly subservient way for one head of state to greet another? Sure, Jimmy, you go ahead and explain the finer points of Japanese culture to the head of Japan. If it wasn't intentional on Obama's part then you have to at least concede that it was a colossal cultural gaffe that caught even Obama's own advisers off guard and left them scrambling for an explanation, such as the "He was just trying to look them in the eye" excuse which the liberal media dutifully reported without question.
                        That you even think that Obama felt the need to be subservient to our ally Japan tells us more about you than anything else. You're a bit of a dope, MM!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Er, Jim, the Japanese have very particular rules of etiquette for bowing - I'm pretty sure the Japanese emperor - and their media, for that matter - would be familiar enough with the rules to correctly assess what Obama did. the best argument is that he simply messed it up - which shifts the blame to his idiot protocol experts. But telling the Japanese that they don't understand their own customs is kinda dumb.
                          No, Republicans making an issue out of it is what's dumb. Actually let me rephrase that, the republican constituency believing it to be an issue makes them look like the fools, not Obama.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            The response of mine you quote here was in response to a post where rogue quoted me, not Jim L

                            And teal honestly, you have quotes from 3 people here, yet you have adressed 'you' which in this case then could refer to one of us, any two of us, or all three of us. And unfortunately I can't from the context reduce it to just one of those six options.

                            It seems you are talking to me, but that doesn't quite make sense either because, again, I was responding to roguess quoting my post. Now perhaps he meant to quote a post of Jim L's? I mostly was sort of ignoring the derail except for rogues' response to me

                            Jim
                            I was just showing where it came from.


                            As a general comment, I hate that multiquote won't turn itself off once the post is complete.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Hmm, didn't you come up with that same excuse in defense off Obama's so called apology tour? Oh no, you didn't, did you? You're just trying to justify to yourself your support for the traitor Sparko.
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              So Obama was really was working behind the scenes against the Japanese when he bowed as deeply as a servant would to their emperor?

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]29006[/ATTACH]
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              It was not subservient behavior rogue, it's a customary sign of respect which many presidents in the past, Nixon, Eisenhower, Clinton, George Bush, all understood and did. The problem is that you are under the spell of Fox News et el and simply, thoughtlessly, believe and parrot whatever they tell you to believe and parrot.
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              The deep bow from the waist is only for servants.

                              Here is an illustration showing the three types of bows

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]29042[/ATTACH]



                              The first is typical among equals. Here is someone and his superior (on the right if you can't tell) bowing to each other

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]29043[/ATTACH]



                              But Obama went even deeper than the servant's bow, between 50 and 60 degrees

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]29044[/ATTACH]
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              No, Republicans making an issue out of it is what's dumb. Actually let me rephrase that, the republican constituency believing it to be an issue makes them look like the fools, not Obama.
                              You brought it up. And Rogue did show a specific example where it was a FP faux pas.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                I suggest you wise up and stop acting the stooge.
                                Is this your expert opinion coming from someone who has no need to act?

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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