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Christians Giving up All Possessions

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  • Christians Giving up All Possessions

    Was curious what holes you could poke or things you could put in context in the following argument:

    1 The apostles were commanded to give up everything and kept all things in common: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
    2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus's disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
    3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20
    4 Therefore all disciples of Christ were commanded to give up everything.

    This would seem to advocate we all join a church like that in the book of Acts. Thoughts?

  • #2
    Using the strict logic given, all Christians would have to be homeless and be itinerant teachers because this is what the twelve disciples did. However, we see from later in the New Testament that some Christians had houses, and possessions (1 Timothy 6:17).

    The three citations from the gospels in point #1 do not establish your point. They show what the disciples did in that particular circumstance (and the third one doesn't even talk about possessions, but rather just about getting up and following Jesus). It nowhere says that this was a commandment or a doctrine for all Christians, any more than speaking the particular language they used was. It would be a real stretch to say that these examples must be included in Matthew 28:18-20 (your point three), and the fact that the rest of the New Testament does not strictly follow this example seals the deal.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Using the strict logic given, all Christians would have to be homeless and be itinerant teachers because this is what the twelve disciples did. However, we see from later in the New Testament that some Christians had houses, and possessions (1 Timothy 6:17).

      The three citations from the gospels in point #1 do not establish your point. They show what the disciples did in that particular circumstance (and the third one doesn't even talk about possessions, but rather just about getting up and following Jesus). It nowhere says that this was a commandment or a doctrine for all Christians, any more than speaking the particular language they used was. It would be a real stretch to say that these examples must be included in Matthew 28:18-20 (your point three), and the fact that the rest of the New Testament does not strictly follow this example seals the deal.
      Right. For instance, we know explicitly from, e.g., Acts 16:40, Rom. 16:3-5, Col. 4:15, etc. that some believers not only kept their homes, but used them as meeting places for the church. This is probably also at least implicit in the "domestic codes" tables in Col. 3-4 and Eph. 5-6; in those cases, even if a "house-church" setting is not implied, it was assumed the householders would retain such things as slaves (albeit with the strong admonition to not treat them as such).
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      • #4
        Scripture also specifically mentions people who provided material support for Jesus and his ministry - and not by giving Him everything they had.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

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        • #5
          Thanks for the lively rejoinder :)

          "Using the strict logic given, all Christians would have to be homeless and be itinerant teachers because this is what the twelve disciples did."
          They actually had at least a house which was called Peter's house: Mat 8:14 Mar 1:29 This may imply ownership or it may imply that this is the community-owned house where Peter stayed when they weren't traveling.

          "However, we see from later in the New Testament that some Christians had houses, and possessions (1 Timothy 6:17). . . . They show what the disciples did in that particular circumstance."
          Maybe it was in those particular circumstances they had possessions because they didn't have a community like the church of Acts or Christ's disciples nearby or their community hadn't gotten to that level yet.

          "(and the third one doesn't even talk about possessions, but rather just about getting up and following Jesus)"
          They left their nets immediatly (their livelihood) (or whatever they were doing) leaving it behind. This is what happens whenever someone came to follow Christ. It's even more radical than just giving up your possessions because you had to leave everything right away:

          57 And it came to pass, as they are going on in the way, a certain one
          said unto him, ‘I will follow thee wherever thou mayest go, sir;’ 58 and
          Jesus said to him, ‘The foxes have holes, and the fowls of the heaven
          places of rest, but the Son of Man hath not where he may recline the
          head.’ 59 And he said unto another, ‘Be following me;’ and he said, ‘Sir,
          permit me, having gone away, first to bury my father;’ 60 and Jesus
          said to him, ‘Suffer the dead to bury their own dead, and thou, having
          gone away, publish the reign of God.’ 61 And another also said, ‘I will
          follow thee, sir, but first permit me to take leave of those in my house;’
          62 and Jesus said unto him, ‘No one having put his hand on a plough,
          and looking back, is fit for the reign of God.’ (Luke 9:57-62 YLT)

          "It nowhere says that this was a commandment or a doctrine for all Christians, any more than speaking the particular language they used was. "
          In addition to logic presented what about Luke 14:33? I don't believe Christ commanded them to use a certain language but this is a good point, how would we distinguish between things that were specific to the apostles and things we should imitate? Since it says to imitate both: 1 Corinthians 11:1

          "It would be a real stretch to say that these examples must be included in Matthew 28:18-20 (your point three),"
          It seems to me to say "teach them all I have commanded you to do" is this the wrong way to look at it?

          "and the fact that the rest of the New Testament does not strictly follow this example seals the deal."
          Jesus and the Apostles? Acts 2:44-47 Acts 4:33-35? This seems to be the ideal Church because of all the miracles that happened and them being in one mind Acts 4:32 or was this only possible because of something in that specific circumstance?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Zendasi View Post
            Was curious what holes you could poke or things you could put in context in the following argument:

            1 The apostles were commanded to give up everything and kept all things in common: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
            2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus's disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
            3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20
            4 Therefore all disciples of Christ were commanded to give up everything.

            This would seem to advocate we all join a church like that in the book of Acts. Thoughts?
            You should examine the semantic range of meaning of the Greek for Matt 28:18-20. Maybe the most basic thing to check for is whether the passage is saying to teach others to do all that the apostles were told to do or whether the passage is saying to teach and promote what Jesus told them to teach and promote.

            Some meanings are also unlikely. All Christians would not be sent to go and bring the message of the pre-resurrected Christ to all of Israel in the land of Judea.

            Probably the most significant point was that the apostles have died. So they aren't telling people what Jesus has commanded anymore. there is then an era that ended with the death of the apostles.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Zendasi View Post
              This would seem to advocate we all join a church like that in the book of Acts. Thoughts?
              If you look closely at Acts 2:44-45, what Luke is describing appears to be a situation that no longer existed at the time he wrote Acts. Probably because it didn't work. Just like the Plymouth colony experiment by William Bradford. People are people.
              And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and theybegan selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. (Acts 2:44-45, NASB)
              When I Survey....

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              • #8
                Craig Blomberg, who wrote a book length analysis of the roles of possessions with Christians, did an analysis of Acts 2. I've read so much of his that I can't remember which book this particular analysis was in but he concluded that Acts 2 was probably not a situation of selling all goods at once but rather as an individual need occurred.

                (His conclusion was that Christians ought to hold possessions much less loosely than they do in Western Christianity, but that the Bible as a whole balances this ascetic outlook somewhat with reminders that material blessings are nonetheless a gift from God.)
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  You should examine the semantic range of meaning of the Greek for Matt 28:18-20. Maybe the most basic thing to check for is whether the passage is saying to teach others to do all that the apostles were told to do or whether the passage is saying to teach and promote what Jesus told them to teach and promote.

                  Some meanings are also unlikely. All Christians would not be sent to go and bring the message of the pre-resurrected Christ to all of Israel in the land of Judea.

                  Probably the most significant point was that the apostles have died. So they aren't telling people what Jesus has commanded anymore. there is then an era that ended with the death of the apostles.
                  Possibly but it seems to me that Christ was being self replicating in his teachings and this was not to end with the apostles: 1 Corinthians 11:1 I also don't think the command to "make disciples" means to bring the message of Christ to everyone. Disciples were people that usually came to you and followed you around and learned from you. In a community context everyone could participate in helping make disciples no matter how ignorant they were. Everyone has a different life experience and something to contribute.

                  Strangely I can't make head or tail of the middle voice used for the word translated "I commanded" it seems like Christ is commanding himself since I understand the middle voice as reflexive:
                  http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/28-20.htm


                  Parsing Key
                  Part of Speech: Verb

                  Tense: Aorist
                  Mood: Indicative
                  Voice: Middle

                  Person: 1st Person
                  Number: Singular

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Scripture also specifically mentions people who provided material support for Jesus and his ministry - and not by giving Him everything they had.
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    Right. For instance, we know explicitly from, e.g., Acts 16:40, Rom. 16:3-5, Col. 4:15, etc. that some believers not only kept their homes, but used them as meeting places for the church. This is probably also at least implicit in the "domestic codes" tables in Col. 3-4 and Eph. 5-6; in those cases, even if a "house-church" setting is not implied, it was assumed the householders would retain such things as slaves (albeit with the strong admonition to not treat them as such).
                    Christ was ok with being around people who weren't perfect. It seems reasonable that some people could not be at the ideal they were aiming for yet. Christ also had kind of an exclusive invitation only group. It seems that type of community later opened up to more people with the Church in Acts and the coming of the holy spirit, untill then people had to wait:

                    ’43 Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable counsellor, who also himself was waiting for the reign of God, came,
                    boldly entered in unto Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus.’ (Mark 15:43 YLT)

                    I actually posted on a similar thread on the Christian Forums why I think the "reign of God" (commonly translated "kingdom of God") was this type of community of sharing:
                    https://www.christianforums.com/thre...#post-72605550

                    Also something cool I noticed Matthew 28:20 says Christ will always be with us (at least the apostles) Christ had to leave in order to send the comforter (the holy spirit) John 16:7. Now look at these paralels:

                    7 and he said unto them, ‘It is not yours to know times or seasons that
                    the Father did appoint in His own authority; 8 but ye shall receive power
                    at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses
                    to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the
                    end of the earth.’ 9 And these things having said – they beholding –
                    he was taken up, and a cloud did receive him up from their sight; 10
                    and as they were looking stedfastly to the heaven in his going on, then,
                    lo, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, ‘Men,
                    Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was
                    received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye
                    saw him going on to the heaven.’ (Acts 1:7-11 YLT)

                    1 And in the day of the Pentecost being fulfilled, they were all with one
                    accord at the same place, 2 and there came suddenly out of the heaven
                    a sound as of a bearing violent breath, and it filled all the house where
                    they were sitting, 3 and there appeared to them divided tongues, as it
                    were of fire; it sat also upon each one of them, 4 and they were all filled
                    with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according
                    as the Spirit was giving them to declare. (Acts 2 YLT)

                    Finally the word translated "having come" in 1 John 4:2 is in the perfect active voice http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/4-2.htm
                    which "emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action" http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson23.htm implying Christ is still here. :) Kind of cool. Which fits with my idea of the reign of God: ”. . . there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.’” (Matthew 16:28)
                    To prevent confusion I think this is distinguished from "the coming of the son of man" https://www.christiancourier.com/art...-matthew-10-23

                    Hopefully I didn't open up another can of worms :)
                    Last edited by Zendasi; 07-22-2018, 09:05 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Middle voice isn't always reflexive. εντελλομαι is a deponent verb.

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                      • #12
                        Also, if you are going around posting this on various message boards as you admit, it appears you are here to argue and not discuss, so I will see myself out.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          Craig Blomberg, who wrote a book length analysis of the roles of possessions with Christians, did an analysis of Acts 2. I've read so much of his that I can't remember which book this particular analysis was in but he concluded that Acts 2 was probably not a situation of selling all goods at once but rather as an individual need occurred.

                          (His conclusion was that Christians ought to hold possessions much less loosely than they do in Western Christianity, but that the Bible as a whole balances this ascetic outlook somewhat with reminders that material blessings are nonetheless a gift from God.)
                          Thanks I haven't actually heard of him before although apparently I did look at some of his arguments when I responded to this article which quotes him: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/a...and-socialism/ I'll check it out more when I have time. I think it's this: https://www.amazon.com/Neither-Pover...thegospcoal-20 I would like to see the context he uses. Since to me it seems the context of giving up of all possessions would have been normal and understood given the Essenes and their influence on Christianity (Paul was responding to an Essene teaching called "works of the law" https://eclass.uoa.gr/modules/docume...ristianity.pdf (see last article)

                          Some context of the Essenes:

                          The Jewish War, Book II, Chapter 8 . . . (8.3) 122 Since [they are]
                          despisers of wealth—their communal stock is astonishing—, one cannot
                          find a person among them who has more in terms of possessions. For
                          by a law, those coming into the school must yield up their funds to the
                          order, with the result that in all [their ranks] neither the humiliation
                          of poverty nor the superiority of wealth is detectable, but the assets
                          of each one have been mixed in together, as if they were brothers, to
                          create one fund for all. 123 They consider olive oil a stain, and should
                          anyone be accidentally smeared with it he scrubs his body, for they
                          make it a point of honor to remain hard and dry, and to wear white
                          always. Hand-elected are the curators of the communal affairs, and
                          indivisible are they, each and every one, [in pursuing] their functions
                          to the advantage of all.”
                          (8.4)
                          124 No one city is theirs, but they settle amply in each. And for those
                          school-members who arrive from elsewhere, all that the community has
                          is laid out for them in the same way as if they were their own things,
                          and they go in and stay with those they have never even seen before as
                          if they were the most intimate friends. 125 For this reason they make
                          trips without carrying any baggage at all—though armed on account of
                          the bandits. In each city a steward of the order appointed specially
                          for the visitors is designated quartermaster for clothing and the other
                          amenities. 126 Dress and also deportment of body: like children being
                          educated with fear. They replace neither clothes nor footwear until
                          the old set is ripped all over or worn through with age. 127 Among
                          themselves, they neither shop for nor sell anything; but each one, after
                          giving the things that he has to the one in need, takes in exchange
                          anything useful that the other has. And even without this reciprocal
                          giving, the transfer to them [of goods] from whomever they wish is
                          unimpeded.
                          https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...n-the-essenes/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            Also, if you are going around posting this on various message boards as you admit, it appears you are here to argue and not discuss, so I will see myself out.
                            I'm getting different perspectives from people but that requires defending my perspective and testing our arguments. Is there anything wrong with that? I also have over 200 posts on the Christian forums all on other topics, this isn't the only thing I talk about. (the thread I linked to is actually the only other thread I have like this one on the internet currently and is several months old)
                            Last edited by Zendasi; 07-22-2018, 09:47 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Obviously you have not given up all possessions, or you would not be posting here from your computer. Why not?

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