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What does it mean to receive the Holy Spirit?

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  • #16
    I broke away from Word-Faith teachings about 25 years ago. In the course of reevaluating and rebuilding my theology over the next few years, some books were quite helpful:

    Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, and Listening to the Spirit in the Text, both by Gordon Fee. (Nerdier people like me will probably end up also getting God's Empowering Presence, also by Fee. It preceded the first book listed here, and is much more detailed and comprehensive -- and much, especially in the footnotes, is over my head; it was refined and condensed into Paul, the Spirit,... for a more "regular" readership.)

    Gift and Giver -- The Holy Spirit for Today, by Craig Keener.

    Keener's book is interesting for recounting a lot of his own personal experiences with the Spirit, in addition to exegesis of Scripture.

    Fee's books... This is a very subjective thing. I'd had a sense there were things in Scripture that were just out of reach, that I could sort of glimpse, and then they'd pop out of sight. Several places in Fee's books, I had that "Aha! THAT'S what it was!" experience.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Joel View Post
      Like an immediate change? or gradual? or both?
      I think it depends on the person and the circumstances.


      The Bible seems to talking about something immediate.
      The bible records events, most of them sensational, not ordinary. It is not a textbook. You can't look at a handful of reports and say that is the way it happens for everyone.

      I am open to the possibility that I'm misinterpreting anything. (And I pray the Holy Spirit lead me away from wrong interpretations.) (I also happen to lack a big conversion event with a before and after, having been raised as a Christian.)
      This is what I meant above by "it depends" - if you were raised as a Christian, you had probably already been "changed" as you grew up. Your baptism and acceptance was more of a formality acknowledging a belief you had all your life. I knew a guy who was a criminal, in a motorcycle gang (not your guy CP!) whose mom had shot out his eye to stop him from beating her, who accepted Christ. He was definitely a changed man. I didn't know him at his conversion so I can't say how long it was, but from what he told me, it was pretty quick.

      Another example that just came back to mind that I didn't mention before is the event in Acts with with Simon the sorcerer. Simon's request implies that something immediate and obvious happened. Otherwise Simon didn't need to make any such request and could just go around laying hands on people (or not) and telling them that the they do have the Holy Spirit. Maybe something like: "Trust me--and what the Apostles have said--despite the fact that you don't notice any thing or any change right now, the Spirit is there and will work undetectably behind the scenes to make you into a better person, perhaps gradually over time."
      The bible never says having the Holy Spirit or talking in tongues saves you - it was a sign that you were saved, but nowhere is it a condition of salvation. It says to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. And by belief I think it means "trust" that he will do what he promises. That he rose from the dead and one day we all will and live with him forever.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Joel View Post
        I think you are correct that it only explicitly refers to prophesying and tongues in those four places. But to receiving or being suddenly filled with the Holy Spirit in other places. (E.g. 4:31 "And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness." Or is that another way of saying prophesied?, 14:52 "And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.") The general impression I got was that it was intended to refer to the same kind of thing in all the cases, even though prophecy and tongues are mentioned explicitly four of those cases. Though it's possible I got the wrong impression. (Incidentally, I did my read all the way through Acts for a different reason, not looking for references to the Holy Spirit. This impression about the Holy Spirit was just something that happened to jump out at me as I read.)

        On the day of Pentecost:
        Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
        Presumably they understood him to mean the same thing the apostles received and that Peter talked about in quoting from the prophet Joel. I guess here you would argue that it was only for the first members of this class: Jews from all nations.
        I would argue that you appear to be reading your preconceived notions into the text.
        Before the Sanhedrin in Ch 5:32, Peter says, "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” The Holy Spirit is a witness to the Sanhedrin? Is Peter referring only to the filling of those who were filled on the day of Pentecost?
        Here, you're assuredly misreading the text.
        In chapter 19, Paul found disciples at Ephesus and asked them “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” which seems to imply that Paul expected random believers he met to have had an experience that would have been obvious to them. (It turned out they only knew of John's baptism.) It ends up that "Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying." The impression is that something like that is what Paul expected believers to have had experienced, when he asked the initial question. Or at least to have had some experience to allow believers to answer with a definite "yes." Otherwise what did he expect a believer to answer? "Yeah, I once heard Peter preach the gospel and I believed. And Peter assured us that we have received the Holy Spirit. I'm not quite sure what that means, but Peter said it, and Jesus promised it, so I guess it must be true."
        Also it doesn't say that these at Ephesus were the first followers of John to ever have been converted.
        Again, I think you're reading your preconceived notions into the text. IMO the specially noted outpourings of the Spirit in Acts are noted precisely because they are NOT typical, but are signs that the particular people group should not be excluded from God's church.
        And (as mentioned in the OP) in multiple places in the NT it says that the Holy Spirit is a testimony or testifies to the recipient, indicating something obvious to the recipient, rather than working invisibly.
        Acts 15:8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit".
        Romans 8:16 "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,"
        Eph 1:13-14 "...with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance,..."
        It seems to be something the believer experiences that is evidence of the promises.
        I don't know if this always means prophecy or speaking in tongues, but sounds like it should be something obvious to the person.
        More of the same. I have not prophesied or spoken in tongues, but I have unequivocally felt the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
        I unfortunately haven't studied church history much. Probably something I should rectify.
        It would help. The church started 2,000 years ago, not 100 or 500.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          I broke away from Word-Faith teachings about 25 years ago. In the course of reevaluating and rebuilding my theology over the next few years, some books were quite helpful:

          Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, and Listening to the Spirit in the Text, both by Gordon Fee. (Nerdier people like me will probably end up also getting God's Empowering Presence, also by Fee. It preceded the first book listed here, and is much more detailed and comprehensive -- and much, especially in the footnotes, is over my head; it was refined and condensed into Paul, the Spirit,... for a more "regular" readership.)

          Gift and Giver -- The Holy Spirit for Today, by Craig Keener.

          Keener's book is interesting for recounting a lot of his own personal experiences with the Spirit, in addition to exegesis of Scripture.

          Fee's books... This is a very subjective thing. I'd had a sense there were things in Scripture that were just out of reach, that I could sort of glimpse, and then they'd pop out of sight. Several places in Fee's books, I had that "Aha! THAT'S what it was!" experience.
          Fee and Keener are those rare charismatics who have some ability to exegete scripture.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I would argue that you appear to be reading your preconceived notions into the text.

            Here, you're assuredly misreading the text.

            Again, I think you're reading your preconceived notions into the text. IMO the specially noted outpourings of the Spirit in Acts are noted precisely because they are NOT typical, but are signs that the particular people group should not be excluded from God's church.

            More of the same.
            I acknowledge that all that you say might be true. As I said, I didn't go into this with an agenda, or looking for it, but it's possible that my mind subconsciously combined what I was reading with notions that were already in my head.

            I have not prophesied or spoken in tongues, but I have unequivocally felt the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
            But I would include that in what I'm talking about. Don't think that I'm hung up on insisting that any one or two particular things (prophecy and/or tongues) are always present. (Even Paul seems to say (1 Cor 12) that not everyone spoke in tongues etc.) But if Paul asked you "Did you receive the Holy Spirit?" You could unequivacally answer, yes, that you have felt the Holy Spirit, right?

            The distinction I'm making is between (1) an unequivocal experience/observation vs (2) what for me has been just a trust that it must be true because the Bible says it's so. The Spirit being in me is an abstract concept that I don't know what that means, that it must be some spiritual state that exists, whatever it is, but that seems to be unknowable and undetectable to me. So if Paul asked me, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit?" I'd have to answer something like, "I don't really know what that means, but the Bible says that, so it (whatever it is) must be the case."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Joel View Post
              I acknowledge that all that you say might be true. As I said, I didn't go into this with an agenda, or looking for it, but it's possible that my mind subconsciously combined what I was reading with notions that were already in my head.


              But I would include that in what I'm talking about. Don't think that I'm hung up on insisting that any one or two particular things (prophecy and/or tongues) are always present. (Even Paul seems to say (1 Cor 12) that not everyone spoke in tongues etc.) But if Paul asked you "Did you receive the Holy Spirit?" You could unequivacally answer, yes, that you have felt the Holy Spirit, right?

              The distinction I'm making is between (1) an unequivocal experience/observation vs (2) what for me has been just a trust that it must be true because the Bible says it's so. The Spirit being in me is an abstract concept that I don't know what that means, that it must be some spiritual state that exists, whatever it is, but that seems to be unknowable and undetectable to me. So if Paul asked me, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit?" I'd have to answer something like, "I don't really know what that means, but the Bible says that, so it (whatever it is) must be the case."
              Knowing you have the Holy Spirit isn't a feeling. It is a promise.

              Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

              Did you repent and was baptized? Do you believe in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins? Then you are promised to have gotten the Holy Spirit, whether you feel it or not. He is there, guiding you. In fact, I would think that if you didn't have the Holy Spirit, you wouldn't even worry about not having him. You would not care if you did or not.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Fee and Keener are those rare charismatics who have some ability to exegete scripture.
                Witherington is pretty good too. I became acquainted with his books much more recently. (AFAIK, he does not have any that *focus* on pneumatic issues, but from his commentaries and other writings, he would qualify as charismatic.)
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Joel View Post
                  I acknowledge that all that you say might be true. As I said, I didn't go into this with an agenda, or looking for it, but it's possible that my mind subconsciously combined what I was reading with notions that were already in my head.


                  But I would include that in what I'm talking about. Don't think that I'm hung up on insisting that any one or two particular things (prophecy and/or tongues) are always present. (Even Paul seems to say (1 Cor 12) that not everyone spoke in tongues etc.) But if Paul asked you "Did you receive the Holy Spirit?" You could unequivacally answer, yes, that you have felt the Holy Spirit, right?

                  The distinction I'm making is between (1) an unequivocal experience/observation vs (2) what for me has been just a trust that it must be true because the Bible says it's so. The Spirit being in me is an abstract concept that I don't know what that means, that it must be some spiritual state that exists, whatever it is, but that seems to be unknowable and undetectable to me. So if Paul asked me, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit?" I'd have to answer something like, "I don't really know what that means, but the Bible says that, so it (whatever it is) must be the case."
                  I can see how non-charismatic Protestants might struggle with that question; people in that group of traditions tend to pay less attention to the work of the Holy Spirit. Charismatic Protestants who haven't prophesied or spoken in tongues could really struggle with that question. Christians in the Orthodox tradition formally receive the Holy Spirit at chrismation (and, presumably, Catholics at confirmation).

                  Do you feel prompted to repent of your sins? When in prayer, and your words fail you, does it seem like your prayers are nonetheless being heard? The Holy Spirit does those things.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Knowing you have the Holy Spirit isn't a feeling. It is a promise.
                    Yet it can be felt. Just walking into a church, I can feel (or feel the lack of) the Spirit's presence.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Yet it can be felt. Just walking into a church, I can feel (or feel the lack of) the Spirit's presence.
                      I think Sparko is referring specifically to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which produces the new birth in the believer. When you walk into any gospel-centered, bible-believing church you will find some who are born again, and others who are not -- these born-again Christian's comprise the "invisible" church/global body of regenerated believers. Those who have not been regenerated/born-again will eventually fall away from their profession and renounce the faith, spurning the gospel. God has his elect scattered everywhere throughout the globe, and they span a variety of gospel-honoring, bible-believing denominations/house-churches/fellowships or even solo believers who do not have access to such meetings, for whatever reason. These global elect are all one in Christ.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Yet it can be felt. Just walking into a church, I can feel (or feel the lack of) the Spirit's presence.
                        Yes, but feelings can be falsified too. There are a lot of cults out there that rely on this. Even when you don't feel the Holy Spirit, he is there with you, as promised.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Yes, but feelings can be falsified too. There are a lot of cults out there that rely on this. Even when you don't feel the Holy Spirit, he is there with you, as promised.
                          Well, yes. That's why we should test the spirits, to ensure they are from God.


                          And I'll note that something counterfeit attempts to copy what is real.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The thing that has bugs me the most about the whole discussion of the Holy Spirit is that the Holy Spirit is all about UNITY, but Satan has managed to use that issue as one of the most divisive issues in Christianity.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The basic purposes of the Holy Spirit are to give us life, and to help us communicate God's word to others. A big part of that is helping believers to understand God's word in the first place. Unsaved people have a lot of trouble understanding the Bible.

                              Ezekiel 2:1-4
                              And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day. For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.


                              Ezekiel was physically brought up by the Holy Spirit. And the next command was that he should preach God's word.

                              Across the world there is great deal more understanding of God's word today than there was 2000 years ago. So obviously the Holy Spirit is doing something. Speaking in tongues has very little to do with it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig
                                Christians in the Orthodox tradition formally receive the Holy Spirit at chrismation (and, presumably, Catholics at confirmation).
                                Yes, and while I've seen some charismatic Catholics, they've been told that the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' that they're talking about, even if something real, is to be considered secondary to that sacrament.

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