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Thread: Atheism And Moral Progress

  1. #871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    The word "intrinsic" means "belonging naturally to," "essential or inherent to." So you're asking basically "What gave pleasure its worth which belongs naturally and essentially to it?" The question doesn't make any sense if you accept the meaning of the word "intrinsic." Why assume that there most be a worth-bestower that's external to the thing with worth?
    That is the point Jim, you are simply making an assertion. That there is an intrinsic property to pleasure or morals apart from "worth-bestower" as you say. I see no reason to accept that.

    I believe that God is the basis of consciousness, maybe that He is even "consciousness itself." And I also believe that consciousness is an intrinsically good thing. But why does all that necessarily mean that God creates the goodness of consciousness? Why can't it just be good in itself? Why can't it just be good to be healthy as opposed to sick? How does that diminish God's power?
    You are suggesting that there is an external moral standard that God needs to live up to. You are suggesting that something other than God's nature is the ultimate ethical criterion.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #872
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    That may be how morality first developed among early humans but if that was all there is to morality, it would be a topic for anthropologists only and not for other fields. To reduce a question to the context it first developed in is to commit the 'genetic fallacy.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
    Not a genetic fallacy at all, and it is based on archaeological and paleontological evidence. Human nature is not known to change since humans were first known to be human including Neanderthals. They had families, communities and tribal hierarchies, reverently buried their dead, healed and cared for their injured and sick, executed offenders, and wore decorative jewelry. We have Stone Age cultures today that function much the way that the evidence demonstrates that Neolithic cultures functioned in terms of morals and ethics throughout human history. Even when go to the more primitive forms of primates they had rules and punished offenders and mourned the lose of their kind. This demonstrates that morals and ethics evolved and are apart of our inherent social nature.

    You are trying to make a distinction that in reality does not exist. I do not believe you can draw a line where there is a difference in whether morality and ethics existed in the history of humanity.

    I will acknowledge the evolution of morals and ethics, which is part of the belief in the Baha'i Faith that our spiritual nature evolved over time through progressive Revelation and reflected in evolution of morals and ethics.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-03-2019 at 01:38 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #873
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    That may be how morality first developed among early humans but if that was all there is to morality, it would be a topic for anthropologists only and not for other fields.
    There is no good reason to think that there is more to “morality” than that of an evolved survival mechanism for social animals such as us. What are these “other fields” to which you refer?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  4. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  5. #874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    There is no good reason to think that there is more to “morality” than that of an evolved survival mechanism for social animals such as us. What are these “other fields” to which you refer?
    According to whom?

    Are you sure you haven't bought into an ontology, whose principles inhibit your ability to reason beyond its rather limited epistemological purview? Methinks you have.

  6. #875
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    According to whom?

    Are you sure you haven't bought into an ontology, whose principles inhibit your ability to reason beyond its rather limited epistemological purview? Methinks you have.
    Methinks your buying into an 'argument from ignorance.' The present evidence is all we have objectively is that our morals and ethics are evolved survival mechanisms for social animals, and our behavior is present in primitive evolve forms in other species like primates, sea animals and elephants.

    The question remains What are those 'other fields' to which you refer to?' There, of course, may be other 'causes' for our morals and ethics, but what evidence is there for these other causes?
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2019 at 05:07 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Methinks your buying into an 'argument from ignorance.' The present evidence is all we have objectively is that our morals and ethics are evolved survival mechanisms for social animals, and our behavior is present in primitive evolve forms in other species like primates, sea animals and elephants.

    The question remains What are those 'other fields' to which you refer to?' There, of course, may be other 'causes' for our morals and ethics, but what evidence is there for these other causes?
    The present evidence, according to premises and criterion I see no reason to agree to - frankly. We have evidence that we are creatures with feelings, reason and higher aesthetic faculties. What those faculties permit is well beyond any necessary evolutionary reductionism or instrumentalism.

    We have a second nature - that nature is not forced to be some evolutionary necessity or causally constructed evidential demand. Some people are called to higher forms of life - they make demands on us.

  8. #877
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    The present evidence, according to premises and criterion I see no reason to agree to - frankly. We have evidence that we are creatures with feelings, reason and higher aesthetic faculties. What those faculties permit is well beyond any necessary evolutionary reductionism or instrumentalism.
    I am curious. How do you know this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    We have a second nature - that nature is not forced to be some evolutionary necessity or causally constructed evidential demand. Some people are called to higher forms of life - they make demands on us.
    Or this...?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I am curious. How do you know this?
    I explored my lived experience. Then I read some pretty difficult books.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Or this...?
    Another book, more lived experience.

  10. #879
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    The present evidence, according to premises and criterion I see no reason to agree to - frankly. We have evidence that we are creatures with feelings, reason and higher aesthetic faculties. What those faculties permit is well beyond any necessary evolutionary reductionism or instrumentalism.
    Actually you are over extending the known evidence as 'What those faculties permit is well beyond any necessary evolutionary reductionism or instrumentalism.' There is no known evidence that would support the nature of being human is 'well beyond' any such subjective claim.

    We have a second nature - that nature is not forced to be some evolutionary necessity or causally constructed evidential demand. Some people are called to higher forms of life - they make demands on us.
    There is no known evolutionary necessity or causality constructed evidential demand, whatever that means. As worded this too mechanistically or deterministically expressed

    The subjective anecdotal assumption that 'some people?' are called to higher forms of life requires the subjective claim that 'they (who ever they may be)' makes demands on us.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2019 at 05:17 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #880
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Actually you are over extending the known evidence as 'What those faculties permit is well beyond any necessary evolutionary reductionism or instrumentalism.' There is no known evidence that would support the nature of being human is 'well beyond' any such subjective claim.
    What is 'known' evidence? It's called transcendence - there's nothing mystical about it. It requires an imagination, one that can function beyond brutish imperatives. Ohh, like, you know, anyone with more than half a brain. However, those that function on just half a brain, tend to come up with a reductive explanation of Being and its limitations. Then demand that we, that again, can function with more, must due to their criterion, reduce our experience to their half-baked model.
    Last edited by Zara; 06-23-2019 at 05:45 PM.

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