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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism And Moral Progress
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Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-28-2018, 03:42 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd it does not avoid the fact that god therefore knowingly created evil by creating a being capable of doing it. Again - there is nothing necessary about evil. God could have created humanity to only be able to do good. Your argument suggests that a being not capable of free moral choice is not capable of being genuine. That is an odd position to take given you have recently said that god is not capable of free moral choice.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostReally? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View PostReally? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou are correct, you did not say "genuine." You said, "perhaps God values a love that is freely given over the determined love of automatons." And you are correct, I value the love of my wife because it is freely given. It would have little/no value if she was simply programmed to give that love. So then why should any human value the love of your god, when it is love given by a predetermined automaton? After all, god apparently cannot choose NOT to love me. It is not love freely given - it is love required by "god's nature."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI value God's love because He made a way to save me, and not experience the wrath my sins deserve.
Originally posted by seer View PostWhether that love is determined by His nature or freely given the effect on my life and eternal future is the same.
And you do not see the inconsistency of this? That's exactly what I was attempting to convey in my original exchange with you, Seer. I leave it to you to determine if it's important.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWhich, as a moral automaton, he more or less had to do, right?
I see - so love freely given is only important for other humans - and not for gods.
And you do not see the inconsistency of this? That's exactly what I was attempting to convey in my original exchange with you, Seer. I leave it to you to determine if it's important.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes I think His nature compels Him,
Well God's love at least could not be capricious, as ours so often is. Again, whether determined or not it will have a lasting effect on my eternal state.
No, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures, we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given. But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer, you are bending over backwards to make the automatonic (made up word?) behavior of a god somehow more valuable than the automatonic behavior of another human. That you have to work this hard to ignore the inconsistency of the belief is...well...informative.Last edited by seer; 11-29-2018, 06:59 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures,
we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given.
But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat is automatonic? Did you mean automaton? But again Carp God is not an automaton, He thinks, wills, feels and acts.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd my point is about what one values, and one can find value in a love that is unchanging and certain. With no variance. Especially when it comes to my eternal future. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer - we have already established that, morally, he is an automaton. He cannot chose any act - only good ones. You refer to a human who can only choose good moral actions as a moral automaton. Why is it any different for a god?
It's not hard for me to grasp at all, Seer. You are shifting the goalposts as you shift from man to god - seeing value in a god that is a moral automaton, but no value in a human with the same characteristics - or insisting that a human that cannot freely choose to perform immoral acts is a moral automaton - but a god who cannot freely choose to perform immoral acts is not.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Carp, I do not think that God is determined in all areas, I named a few already.
And automatons don't think, will, or feel. Yes by nature God can not lie for instance, and I do not see that as a bad thing.Last edited by Tassman; 11-30-2018, 11:00 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI certainly don't have the time to respond to all of this in one go. You said "pick one," so I guess we might as well start at the top.
A Disjunctive Argument for Objective Moral Values
- Either moral values are objective or moral are subjective.
- Moral values are not subjective.
- Therefore, moral values are objective.
You correctly note that, "the objectivist doesn’t necessarily have to argue FOR objectivism because premise 1 is an exhaustive disjunction. All the objectivist needs to do is demonstrate that moral subjectivism is false (premise 2), and the conclusion necessarily follows."
So go for it. Prove #2 is false.
MichelMany and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
George Horne
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Carp, I do not think that God is determined in all areas, I named a few already. And automatons don't think, will, or feel. Yes by nature God can not lie for instance, and I do not see that as a bad thing.
Originally posted by seer View PostThat is a lie Carp, I am not shifting anything. I'm clearly explaining why I find value here and why. I value the freely given love of a human being. But I also know that love is often inconsistent, fickle or fades with time. I don't know if I want my eternal destiny decided by a love that can be capricious. In that case I would value a determined love more than a love based on vagaries of free will. Why doesn't that make sense to you?
What you have said is:
1) a human who cannot freely choose "moral good" is a moral automaton - and you believe your god values love freely given. You noted that the love of a spouse has value because it is freely given (and does not have to be given).
2) your god cannot freely choose to do evil - and is constrained to do only what is good.
Your own reasoning leads to the conclusion that your god's love is not "freely given" - and your god is constrained to only love by his "nature." Ergo - your god is a moral automaton whose love really has no true value because it is not freely given.
I don't see how you escape this conundrum. It is what I have been trying to point out to you for some time now.
And, a this point I think I've repeated myself enough. If this is not clear at this point, I don't think it is going to be. I'll leave the last word to you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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