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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Atheism And Moral Progress

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Yes Carp, God knowingly created men free, and knew they would misuse that freedom. Remember, what the greatest command is? To love God. Perhaps God values a love that is freely given over the determined love of automatons? And that is consistent with Christian theology.
    And it does not avoid the fact that god therefore knowingly created evil by creating a being capable of doing it. Again - there is nothing necessary about evil. God could have created humanity to only be able to do good. Your argument suggests that a being not capable of free moral choice is not capable of being genuine. That is an odd position to take given you have recently said that god is not capable of free moral choice.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-28-2018, 03:42 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      And it does not avoid the fact that god therefore knowingly created evil by creating a being capable of doing it. Again - there is nothing necessary about evil. God could have created humanity to only be able to do good. Your argument suggests that a being not capable of free moral choice is not capable of being genuine. That is an odd position to take given you have recently said that god is not capable of free moral choice.
      Really? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Really? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.
        Our wives and children are largely determined to love us because of their socialization and acculturation by us as loving people. We in turn were inculcated with loving values by our own family and community. Human behavior has evolved to ensure the survival of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Really? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.
          You are correct, you did not say "genuine." You said, "perhaps God values a love that is freely given over the determined love of automatons." And you are correct, I value the love of my wife because it is freely given. It would have little/no value if she was simply programmed to give that love. So then why should any human value the love of your god, when it is love given by a predetermined automaton? After all, god apparently cannot choose NOT to love me. It is not love freely given - it is love required by "god's nature."
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            You are correct, you did not say "genuine." You said, "perhaps God values a love that is freely given over the determined love of automatons." And you are correct, I value the love of my wife because it is freely given. It would have little/no value if she was simply programmed to give that love. So then why should any human value the love of your god, when it is love given by a predetermined automaton? After all, god apparently cannot choose NOT to love me. It is not love freely given - it is love required by "god's nature."
            I value God's love because He made a way to save me, and not experience the wrath my sins deserve. Whether that love is determined by His nature or freely given the effect on my life and eternal future is the same.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              I value God's love because He made a way to save me, and not experience the wrath my sins deserve.
              Which, as a moral automaton, he more or less had to do, right?

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Whether that love is determined by His nature or freely given the effect on my life and eternal future is the same.
              I see - so love freely given is only important for other humans - and not for gods.

              And you do not see the inconsistency of this? That's exactly what I was attempting to convey in my original exchange with you, Seer. I leave it to you to determine if it's important.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Which, as a moral automaton, he more or less had to do, right?
                Yes I think His nature compels Him,

                I see - so love freely given is only important for other humans - and not for gods.
                Well God's love at least could not be capricious, as ours so often is. Again, whether determined or not it will have a lasting effect on my eternal state.

                And you do not see the inconsistency of this? That's exactly what I was attempting to convey in my original exchange with you, Seer. I leave it to you to determine if it's important.
                No, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures, we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given. But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Yes I think His nature compels Him,

                  Well God's love at least could not be capricious, as ours so often is. Again, whether determined or not it will have a lasting effect on my eternal state.

                  No, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures, we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given. But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?
                  Seer, you are bending over backwards to make the automatonic (made up word?) behavior of a god somehow more valuable than the automatonic behavior of another human. That you have to work this hard to ignore the inconsistency of the belief is...well...informative.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Seer, you are bending over backwards to make the automatonic (made up word?) behavior of a god somehow more valuable than the automatonic behavior of another human. That you have to work this hard to ignore the inconsistency of the belief is...well...informative.
                    What is automatonic? Did you mean automaton? But again Carp God is not an automaton, He thinks, wills, feels and acts. And my point is about what one values, and one can find value in a love that is unchanging and certain. With no variance. Especially when it comes to my eternal future. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
                    Last edited by seer; 11-29-2018, 06:59 PM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      No, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures,
                      Why does a perfect God, complete within himself, want love?

                      we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given.
                      We do, but we are imperfect creatures with needs and desires, unlike God.

                      But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?
                      So the purpose of God's love is to make us feel secure? About what?
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        What is automatonic? Did you mean automaton? But again Carp God is not an automaton, He thinks, wills, feels and acts.
                        Seer - we have already established that, morally, he is an automaton. He cannot chose any act - only good ones. You refer to a human who can only choose good moral actions as a moral automaton. Why is it any different for a god?

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And my point is about what one values, and one can find value in a love that is unchanging and certain. With no variance. Especially when it comes to my eternal future. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
                        It's not hard for me to grasp at all, Seer. You are shifting the goalposts as you shift from man to god - seeing value in a god that is a moral automaton, but no value in a human with the same characteristics - or insisting that a human that cannot freely choose to perform immoral acts is a moral automaton - but a god who cannot freely choose to perform immoral acts is not.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Seer - we have already established that, morally, he is an automaton. He cannot chose any act - only good ones. You refer to a human who can only choose good moral actions as a moral automaton. Why is it any different for a god?
                          No Carp, I do not think that God is determined in all areas, I named a few already. And automatons don't think, will, or feel. Yes by nature God can not lie for instance, and I do not see that as a bad thing.


                          It's not hard for me to grasp at all, Seer. You are shifting the goalposts as you shift from man to god - seeing value in a god that is a moral automaton, but no value in a human with the same characteristics - or insisting that a human that cannot freely choose to perform immoral acts is a moral automaton - but a god who cannot freely choose to perform immoral acts is not.
                          That is a lie Carp, I am not shifting anything. I'm clearly explaining why I find value here and why. I value the freely given love of a human being. But I also know that love is often inconsistent, fickle or fades with time. I don't know if I want my eternal destiny decided by a love that can be capricious. In that case I would value a determined love more than a love based on vagaries of free will. Why doesn't that make sense to you?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            No Carp, I do not think that God is determined in all areas, I named a few already.
                            The mere fact you accept that God is limited in some areas is indicative that He lacks ‘libertarian free will’. This is no different to accepting what we know to be true about humans, namely that our choices are largely affected by our subconscious memories and experiences and not the result of libertarian free-will decisions.

                            And automatons don't think, will, or feel. Yes by nature God can not lie for instance, and I do not see that as a bad thing.
                            It is not a “bad thing” at all. But it is also inconsistent with ‘libertarian free will, which is what you are arguing.
                            Last edited by Tassman; 11-30-2018, 11:00 PM.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I certainly don't have the time to respond to all of this in one go. You said "pick one," so I guess we might as well start at the top.


                              A Disjunctive Argument for Objective Moral Values
                              1. Either moral values are objective or moral are subjective.
                              2. Moral values are not subjective.
                              3. Therefore, moral values are objective.



                              You correctly note that, "the objectivist doesn’t necessarily have to argue FOR objectivism because premise 1 is an exhaustive disjunction. All the objectivist needs to do is demonstrate that moral subjectivism is false (premise 2), and the conclusion necessarily follows."

                              So go for it. Prove #2 is false.

                              Michel
                              Sorry carpedm9587! Me and the wife are in the process of moving, so no time for Internet for the next couple of weeks. But I shall return! Sorry about the wait!
                              Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
                              George Horne

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                No Carp, I do not think that God is determined in all areas, I named a few already. And automatons don't think, will, or feel. Yes by nature God can not lie for instance, and I do not see that as a bad thing.
                                I did not say "all areas." I said "moral automaton." If a human would be a "moral automaton" if they could not freely choose to do good (i.e., by being able to also choose evil), then it stands to reason the same logic applies to a god.

                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                That is a lie Carp, I am not shifting anything. I'm clearly explaining why I find value here and why. I value the freely given love of a human being. But I also know that love is often inconsistent, fickle or fades with time. I don't know if I want my eternal destiny decided by a love that can be capricious. In that case I would value a determined love more than a love based on vagaries of free will. Why doesn't that make sense to you?
                                It is not a lie, Seer. You are very free with your insults, my friend. I am merely repeating your argument back to you:

                                What you have said is:

                                1) a human who cannot freely choose "moral good" is a moral automaton - and you believe your god values love freely given. You noted that the love of a spouse has value because it is freely given (and does not have to be given).
                                2) your god cannot freely choose to do evil - and is constrained to do only what is good.

                                Your own reasoning leads to the conclusion that your god's love is not "freely given" - and your god is constrained to only love by his "nature." Ergo - your god is a moral automaton whose love really has no true value because it is not freely given.

                                I don't see how you escape this conundrum. It is what I have been trying to point out to you for some time now.

                                And, a this point I think I've repeated myself enough. If this is not clear at this point, I don't think it is going to be. I'll leave the last word to you.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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