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Thread: Atheism And Moral Progress

  1. #1131
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I'm sure you are not surprised to hear that this is a fairly regular refrain. But then again, it's a refrain within Christianity as well. Anyone who's theology doesn't align is "not Christian" or "Unchristian." But it is curious that you would say "you're wrong" about my reported experiences. Apparently I have'nt experienced what I've experienced. Odd that.
    Perhaps you regularly hear the refrain because you so often out yourself. It's not simply that your theology apparently did not align with Christianity (it didn't), but as far as I can tell, your entire Christian experience was idiosyncratic. I'm not the only one who has noticed that on this forum. Every time you post you demonstrate a bit more what little understanding you have of a faith you claimed to have so cherished. It's little wonder you apostatized.


    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    And yet that is a common response. Seer has used it. Sparko has used it. Well.. I gave you a list before. If there are people here who think/discuss differently, I have not met them or had that type of discussion with them.


    I believe my comments were about people here, on this forum that I have had exchanges with, Adrift. I'm not sure how it got projected to the entire population of Christians. Indeed, I was fairly clear that I am aware some Christians exist who DO question the bible statements and do NOT base their moral framework on it. Somehow, you seem to have missed that observation.


    Well, I guess that explains how you missed the observation...



    I can only speak to what I have observed. If I have not met them, or discussed with them, then I cannot know about them.

    Was it not on this very forum that I told you that this view was not accurate? That several regulars upvoted my post after telling you it wasn't accurate (including Sparko)? But your rebuttal was an attempt to move from the specific to the general. You were quite obviously using your example with seer (which I also explored in that other thread) as something you saw normative of Christian moralism, and you insisted on this interpretation after I called you on it. Furthermore, someone so serious about his Christian faith that he attended seminary should have at some point come into contact with Augustine and Kierkegaard. If not there, at least some time in your many years on the forum (perhaps before the crash). If your experiences are indeed so limited that you're not familiar with Christian ethics, perhaps you shouldn't write about it with such confidence.

    Also, the bit you slipped in about questioning the Bible and NOT basing one's moral framework on it misses the point. Plenty of Christians (likely the majority) have a healthy enough moral framework that allows investigation, acceptance, and integration of certain moral teachings espoused in scripture while recognizing that it offers illumination on moral intuitions they had previous to their conversion. In other words, while plenty of Christians continue to question the Bible, they need not reject it's teachings out and out to demonstrate that their moral framework is pinned on more than "because the Bible says so."

  2. #1132
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Carp, one can turn a lot of claims into a tautology just by the wording. What we are saying at bottom is that God is perfectly and immutably rational and that the universe reflects that rationality. That perfect rationality is an attribute of God, that is not a tautology - period.
    When you respond to what I actually said, I'll engage further.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #1133
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense Carp, there are individuals who are citizens who do not recognize government authority or its laws, we call them criminals. And we put them in jail - the government has that right, whether the criminal agrees with that authority or not.
    As noted multiple times, their citizenship and voluntary presence within these borders IS their consent. That is essentially what citizenship is - an agreement to abide by the laws of the land and to follow through on one's duties to the state (i.e., taxes, etc.) in return for the benefits of citizenship. You can claim to "not consent" all you wish - but if you remain voluntarily here and retain your citizenship - your actions belie your words.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Isn't the special...

    That is just untrue, you don't know many in Militia groups do you. Again, your consent is meaningless, it has no effect on the authority of the government. It is merely a subjective, personal proclivity of yours.
    See above.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #1134
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    What do you mean merely? If I say that Carp can not think logically then Carp can not act other than other than how his mind works. Carp can not act rationally reduces to Carp cannot act other than how Carp can act. That is just silly, you can say a dog can't act other than a how a dog can act, a fish or a bird, etc...
    Ahh...so you found the post. "Merely had" no specific meaning in the statement and can be omitted without loss. It's one of those words that gets tossed in sometimes without thinking (at least by me). The point is, logic is being defined in terms of god's mind (which is not what is done with respect to Carpe). It is defined to be "the nature of god's mind." You are not just saying that god is logical (i.e., god thinks consistently with the objective/absolute laws of logic) but rather that the objective/absolute laws of logic exist because god's mind operates this way (unless I have misunderstood your argument). It is this claim that renders the statement a tautology.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #1135
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Perhaps you regularly hear the refrain because you so often out yourself. It's not simply that your theology apparently did not align with Christianity (it didn't), but as far as I can tell, your entire Christian experience was idiosyncratic. I'm not the only one who has noticed that on this forum. Every time you post you demonstrate a bit more what little understanding you have of a faith you claimed to have so cherished. It's little wonder you apostatized.
    Adrift, with all due respect, I'm not going to engage further in "who is" or "who was" a "theologically proper Christian." If you believe I never was, such is life. A lot of Christians would agree with you, and the there all those that wouldn't. What constitutes a "theologically proper Christian" is a fluid thing that varies (to varying degrees) from one person/sect to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Was it not on this very forum that I told you that this view was not accurate? That several regulars upvoted my post after telling you it wasn't accurate (including Sparko)? But your rebuttal was an attempt to move from the specific to the general. You were quite obviously using your example with seer (which I also explored in that other thread) as something you saw normative of Christian moralism, and you insisted on this interpretation after I called you on it. Furthermore, someone so serious about his Christian faith that he attended seminary should have at some point come into contact with Augustine and Kierkegaard. If not there, at least some time in your many years on the forum (perhaps before the crash). If your experiences are indeed so limited that you're not familiar with Christian ethics, perhaps you shouldn't write about it with such confidence.
    Again, my comment was made with respect to a specific group. Why you choose to bring historical theologians into the mix I do not understand, but they have nothing to do with my initial observation. The "because the bible says so" group exists, and is well represented here. Indeed, it is the primary voice I have encountered on this site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Also, the bit you slipped in about questioning the Bible and NOT basing one's moral framework on it misses the point. Plenty of Christians (likely the majority) have a healthy enough moral framework that allows investigation, acceptance, and integration of certain moral teachings espoused in scripture while recognizing that it offers illumination on moral intuitions they had previous to their conversion. In other words, while plenty of Christians continue to question the Bible, they need not reject it's teachings out and out to demonstrate that their moral framework is pinned on more than "because the Bible says so."
    And my experience is, when you begin any significant discussion about the basis for these beliefs, we eventually end up at "because the bible says so and the bible is the (inspired, inerrant, etc.) word of god." It was recognizing this that made me realize the futility of engaging in a discussion about specific moral principles with the aforementioned. The valuing is WAY out of synch, and the probability of successful resolution of the moral discrepancy is extremely low. Indeed, there is not even a way to point out logical disconnects between different moral positions; if those logical disconnects are ignored and the moral principles enshrined in the bible, then they will be held without further question. It's why I stopped discussing specific moral issues here. There is basically no point in doing so.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #1136
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Ahh...so you found the post. "Merely had" no specific meaning in the statement and can be omitted without loss. It's one of those words that gets tossed in sometimes without thinking (at least by me). The point is, logic is being defined in terms of god's mind (which is not what is done with respect to Carpe). It is defined to be "the nature of god's mind." You are not just saying that god is logical (i.e., god thinks consistently with the objective/absolute laws of logic) but rather that the objective/absolute laws of logic exist because god's mind operates this way (unless I have misunderstood your argument). It is this claim that renders the statement a tautology.
    And a dog acts like a dog. To say that God is the source of logic is not a tautology, any more than saying that God is the source of moral absolutes.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  7. #1137
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And a dog acts like a dog. To say that God is the source of logic is not a tautology, any more than saying that God is the source of moral absolutes.
    I did not say " 'god is the source of logic' is a tautology," so we're back to "when you get what I said right, I'll respond further." Sorry, but I've decided I'm tired of wasting my time continually trying to bring people back to what I actually said, instead of the strawmen they create and then bat down. When you are accurately reflecting what I have actually said, I'll engage further. Until then, feel free to flail away at...well...whatever you're flailing away at...
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 08-14-2019 at 10:11 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #1138
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I did not say " 'god is the source of logic' is a tautology," so we're back to "when you get what I said right, I'll respond further." Sorry, but I've decided I'm tired of wasting my time continually trying to bring people back to what I actually said, instead of the strawmen they create and then bat down. When you are accurately reflecting what I have actually said, I'll engage further. Until then, feel free to flail away at...well...whatever you're flailing away at...
    I did not say 'god is the source of logic' is a tautology. Good, and therefore that He is immutably rational. Again not a tautology. And that is all I'm saying, as was the quote that Adrift referenced.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  9. #1139
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As noted multiple times, their citizenship and voluntary presence within these borders IS their consent. That is essentially what citizenship is - an agreement to abide by the laws of the land and to follow through on one's duties to the state (i.e., taxes, etc.) in return for the benefits of citizenship. You can claim to "not consent" all you wish - but if you remain voluntarily here and retain your citizenship - your actions belie your words.

    See above.
    And again, that is just untrue. And I suspect that your circle of friends is rather limited.

    Sovereign citizen movement

    The sovereign citizen movement is a loose grouping of American and Commonwealth litigants, commentators, tax protesters, and financial-scheme promoters. Self-described "sovereign citizens" see themselves as answerable only to their particular interpretation of the common law and as not subject to any government statutes or proceedings.[1] In the United States, they do not recognize U.S. currency and maintain that they are "free of any legal constraints".[2][3][4] They especially reject most forms of taxation as illegitimate.[5] Participants in the movement argue this concept in opposition to the idea of "federal citizens", who, they say, have unknowingly forfeited their rights by accepting some aspect of federal law.[6]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovere...tizen_movement
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #1140
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I did not say 'god is the source of logic' is a tautology. Good, and therefore that He is immutably rational. Again not a tautology. And that is all I'm saying, as was the quote that Adrift referenced.
    When you respond to what I actually said, I'll respond further.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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