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Thread: Atheism And Moral Progress

  1. #701
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I have repeatedly acknowledged the multiple definitions, Seer - and pointed out that they exist because people needed them to avoid the obvious conflicts. The subcomponents of the words are pretty clear: "all" and "powerful." The other definitions arose because it is not possible to have such a being.
    Are you suggesting that Oxford has a hidden agenda?


    Seer - the evidence is the statement itself. There is nothing I can do about your apparent need to simply gloss over the statement, or ignore its import. So we are at an impasse. I think we have accomplished all that can be accomplished with this discussion I'll leave the last word to you.
    You still have not shown that God does not act according to the reference of good and bad, even if it is own internal moral compass.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #702
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Are you suggesting that Oxford has a hidden agenda?
    A dictionary reports how words are used. It does not explain how or why those words came to be used that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You still have not shown that God does not act according to the reference of good and bad, even if it is own internal moral compass.
    I don't believe there is a god, Seer, remember? So it's not my place to make any statements about gods. When someone else makes statements about their gods, I can apply simple reason to show how/when those statements are not logically consistent. Frankly, I find all of the claims about god to be untrue because I don't believe such a being exists.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    A dictionary reports how words are used. It does not explain how or why those words came to be used that way.
    So you are really anal about the definition of omnipotent, yet you had no problem using the word 'force' in novel ways.


    I don't believe there is a god, Seer, remember? So it's not my place to make any statements about gods. When someone else makes statements about their gods, I can apply simple reason to show how/when those statements are not logically consistent. Frankly, I find all of the claims about god to be untrue because I don't believe such a being exists.
    That does not answer the question Carp, if God acts in accordance to His own moral compass of what is good or evil, how is not referencing right and wrong?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  4. #704
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So you are really anal about the definition of omnipotent, yet you had no problem using the word 'force' in novel ways.
    "Force" was a poor choice of words on my part, because it immediately segued the discussion to god still being able to freely choose from the limited set - so no "force" was involved. My thinking was physics based: for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. So if god cannot act in way X - then something is prohibiting him from making that choice (i.e., "forcing" him to chose from the constrained set). You used the word "constraint," which is probably a better choice. The ultimate point is that god, by your definition, is prohibited (apparently by his nature) from making choices that are not logically impossible choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That does not answer the question Carp, if God acts in accordance to His own moral compass of what is good or evil, how is not referencing right and wrong?
    It is referencing right. It is not referencing wrong. God is prohibited from choosing from that set of actions. He is not choosing to eschew evil acts - he cannot perform an evil act - by your definitions.

    But the problem is a moot one, Seer. You have noted that god is not omnipotent - which eliminates the conundrum.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #705
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post




    You still have not shown that God does not act according to the reference of good and bad, even if it is own internal moral compass.
    Your argument is that God cannot act according to the reference of good and bad, because you have ruled out the possibility of God ever being able to choose “bad”.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    It is referencing right. It is not referencing wrong. God is prohibited from choosing from that set of actions. He is not choosing to eschew evil acts - he cannot perform an evil act - by your definitions.
    Nonsense Carp, of course He is referencing right and wrong, what conforms to His will and nature is right, what doesn't conform is wrong. And referencing is NOT choosing. You keep conflating the two words.

    But the problem is a moot one, Seer. You have noted that god is not omnipotent - which eliminates the conundrum.
    Right, I believe that God can do ANYTHING that is intrinsically possible.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  7. #707
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense Carp, of course He is referencing right and wrong, what conforms to His will and nature is right, what doesn't conform is wrong. And referencing is NOT choosing. You keep conflating the two words.
    This has been responded to multiple times. I'll let my previous posts stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Right, I believe that God can do ANYTHING that is intrinsically possible.
    And if anything does not conform to your definition of "god," then it is excluded from the list of "intrinsically possible," so you can hold on to the definition of "god" you want. The result is a god that is more constrained than mere mortal.

    It's an odd belief system, to me.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #708
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    This has been responded to multiple times. I'll let my previous posts stand.
    Right and you still are conflating choice with reference.

    And if anything does not conform to your definition of "god," then it is excluded from the list of "intrinsically possible," so you can hold on to the definition of "god" you want. The result is a god that is more constrained than mere mortal.

    It's an odd belief system, to me.
    Carp, of course, Biblically, we would have to exclude certain things as intrinsically possible for God. Like lying or sinning or ceasing to exist or acting contrary to His nature - generally. Why on earth would you find that controversial or odd? Besides your inherent bias? And if you think God is more constrained than a mere mortal get back to me after you raise the dead, walk on water, or create a cosmos of your own.
    Last edited by seer; 01-14-2019 at 11:50 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  9. #709
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Right and you still are conflating choice with reference.

    Carp, of course, Biblically, we would have to exclude certain things as intrinsically possible for God. Like lying or sinning or ceasing to exist or acting contrary to His nature - generally. Why on earth would you find that controversial or odd? Besides your inherent bias? And if you think God is more constrained than a mere mortal get back to me after you raise the dead, walk on water, or create a cosmos of your own.
    Seer - every religion has it's "bible." They mostly do the same thing with respect to this; describe a particular kind of god - and then define their terms around that description.

    And then people wonder why those of us who sit outside of all that scratch our heads and are somewhat perplexed that people can't see just how convoluted their structures are.

    That being said - I think we have run the course with this discussion. Thanks for the chat.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Seer - every religion has it's "bible." They mostly do the same thing with respect to this; describe a particular kind of god - and then define their terms around that description.

    And then people wonder why those of us who sit outside of all that scratch our heads and are somewhat perplexed that people can't see just how convoluted their structures are.

    That being said - I think we have run the course with this discussion. Thanks for the chat.
    If you have a problem Carp, go to the actual text (there the problem usually disappears). Yes men try to define these things using available language and concepts. The God of Scripture is as close as one is going to get to the idea of omnipotent. Though like I said I prefer the term supremely powerful.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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