Page 87 of 93 FirstFirst ... 37778586878889 ... LastLast
Results 861 to 870 of 928

Thread: Atheism And Moral Progress

  1. #861
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    23,572
    Amen (Given)
    1534
    Amen (Received)
    4695
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    'Intrinsic' means having it within itself.
    I know Jim, so how do moral ideals have intrinsic worth? It seems like an assertion. Worth is something ascribe by rational beings, in this case rational moral beings.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #862
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    10,978
    Amen (Given)
    2432
    Amen (Received)
    1743
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    That is also a philosophical claim. I never said "philosophy alone".
    You need to explain how the premise of a philosophical argent can be shown to be true. Because without a ‘true premise’ philosophy cannot arrive at a true conclusion about the real world.

    I'm only saying that the statement "Empiricism alone is the only valid form of knowledge" contradicts itself because it's not an empirical finding.
    Certainly, science needs philosophy but the bottom line is that philosophy alone can tell us nothing new about the real world. Unlike scientific methodology, it has no means to test and verify its premises.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  3. #863
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    275
    Amen (Given)
    2
    Amen (Received)
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    You need to explain how the premise of a philosophical argent can be shown to be true. Because without a ‘true premise’ philosophy cannot arrive at a true conclusion about the real world.



    Certainly, science needs philosophy but the bottom line is that philosophy alone can tell us nothing new about the real world. Unlike scientific methodology, it has no means to test and verify its premises.
    It's not a simplistic, linear relationship like you suggest. The relationship between observation and reflection or understanding is more like a give-and-take, more like a dialogue. How we see the world isn't just a matter of accurate observation. What we see, to be "seen" at all, must mean something, must fit into a given conceptual structure. Perception, understanding and willing aren't separate activities. They feed into each other. To perceive something is to perceive it as something and that's already to relate it to the rest of what you already know. There's no 'neutral given,' no clean, objective observational starting point. That's a naive misunderstanding of empirical thinking from the 17th Century.

    All observation occurs within some system of concepts and the judgments made based on those observations are only as good as the system they occur in.

    Locke said that our experience tells us about the nature of reality. But how can we know since we can't jump outside our experience to compare it to reality? He begs the question.

    "There are no logically necessary truths about the world" is based on logic. It claims to have logically necessary knowledge about the nature of the world, so it contradicts itself.

  4. #864
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    275
    Amen (Given)
    2
    Amen (Received)
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I know Jim, so how do moral ideals have intrinsic worth? It seems like an assertion. Worth is something ascribe by rational beings, in this case rational moral beings.
    These things have worth for conscious beings, of course, but those beings don't necessarily confer that worth onto them, imo. Think of the analogy of pleasure. If pleasure is intrinsically a good thing, there still need to be sentient creatures to experience the pleasure, but that doesn't mean those creatures are ascribing the worth onto pleasure. It's there already waiting for them, even though it has to be actualized by being experienced.

  5. #865
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    10,978
    Amen (Given)
    2432
    Amen (Received)
    1743
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    It's not a simplistic, linear relationship like you suggest. The relationship between observation and reflection or understanding is more like a give-and-take, more like a dialogue.
    What you are suggesting with your "give-and take" notion will result perhaps in a nice idea, or one that resonates, but no certainty that it's true. Because, philosophy alone is not equipped to tell us anything new about the real world. Unlike scientific methodology, it has no means to test and verify its premises. And without a verified ‘true premise’ the conclusion of a philosophical argument cannot be shown to be true.
    Last edited by Tassman; 06-02-2019 at 09:42 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  6. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  7. #866
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    23,572
    Amen (Given)
    1534
    Amen (Received)
    4695
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    These things have worth for conscious beings, of course, but those beings don't necessarily confer that worth onto them, imo. Think of the analogy of pleasure. If pleasure is intrinsically a good thing, there still need to be sentient creatures to experience the pleasure, but that doesn't mean those creatures are ascribing the worth onto pleasure. It's there already waiting for them, even though it has to be actualized by being experienced.
    Again Jim, I don't know what you mean - why is pleasure an intrinsically good thing? How do moral ideals have intrinsic worth?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  8. #867
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,830
    Amen (Given)
    1463
    Amen (Received)
    946
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I know Jim, so how do moral ideals have intrinsic worth? It seems like an assertion. Worth is something ascribe by rational beings, in this case rational moral beings.
    Moral ideals have survival value in the evolution of the human species as a social intelligent omnivore that requires a social cooperative social unites like families and tribal units to survive.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  10. #868
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    275
    Amen (Given)
    2
    Amen (Received)
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    What you are suggesting with your "give-and take" notion will result perhaps in a nice idea, or one that resonates, but no certainty that it's true. Because, philosophy alone is not equipped to tell us anything new about the real world. Unlike scientific methodology, it has no means to test and verify its premises. And without a verified ‘true premise’ the conclusion of a philosophical argument cannot be shown to be true.
    You just basically repeated your previous post with no sign that you even read my last post.

  11. #869
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    275
    Amen (Given)
    2
    Amen (Received)
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Again Jim, I don't know what you mean - why is pleasure an intrinsically good thing? How do moral ideals have intrinsic worth?
    The word "intrinsic" means "belonging naturally to," "essential or inherent to." So you're asking basically "What gave pleasure its worth which belongs naturally and essentially to it?" The question doesn't make any sense if you accept the meaning of the word "intrinsic." Why assume that there most be a worth-bestower that's external to the thing with worth?

    I believe that God is the basis of consciousness, maybe that He is even "consciousness itself." And I also believe that consciousness is an intrinsically good thing. But why does all that necessarily mean that God creates the goodness of consciousness? Why can't it just be good in itself? Why can't it just be good to be healthy as opposed to sick? How does that diminish God's power?

  12. #870
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    275
    Amen (Given)
    2
    Amen (Received)
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Moral ideals have survival value in the evolution of the human species as a social intelligent omnivore that requires a social cooperative social unites like families and tribal units to survive.
    That may be how morality first developed among early humans but if that was all there is to morality, it would be a topic for anthropologists only and not for other fields. To reduce a question to the context it first developed in is to commit the 'genetic fallacy.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •