Atheism And Moral Progress

[Tassman]

Of course, why would it be otherwise? As an atheist how would they have meaning apart from your say so?

The same applies to religion-based morality via the selection of biblical texts that justify personal beliefs as inculcated by society. Social mores derive from self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. They are beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as social animals.

[seer]

The same applies to religion-based morality via the selection of biblical texts that justify personal beliefs as inculcated by society. Social mores derive from self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. They are beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as social animals.

Oh please, like killing our offspring by the millions further our self-preservation and procreation.

[Roy]

PS did you know that the very word "Good" comes from "God?"

I know that "Good" and "God" come from two different German words, that the claim that one is a derivation of the other is a lie invented by some unscrupulous evangelist and propagated by gullible and ignorant Christians; that it's a particularly stupid claim since it can be confirmed or refuted by a dictionary, so there's no excuse for not checking it; and thus anyone who repeats it is more interested in sound-bites than truth.

Also, your source doesn't say "Good" comes from "God", only that the word "good" was applied to God, so you have even less excuse that some-one who hasn't checked, since you've checked and still got it wrong.

[Sparko]

I know that "Good" and "God" come from two different German words, that the claim that one is a derivation of the other is a lie invented by some unscrupulous evangelist and propagated by gullible and ignorant Christians; that it's a particularly stupid claim since it can be confirmed or refuted by a dictionary, so there's no excuse for not checking it; and thus anyone who repeats it is more interested in sound-bites than truth.

Also, your source doesn't say "Good" comes from "God", only that the word "good" was applied to God, so you have even less excuse that some-one who hasn't checked, since you've checked and still got it wrong.

"Sense of "kind, benevolent" is from late Old English in reference to persons or God, from mid-14c. of actions."

[JimL]

Of course, why would it be otherwise? As an atheist how would they have meaning apart from your say so?

I've explained that a thousand times over to you seer, I don't expect it to ever get through. But, what the heck, i've nothing better to do at the moment so I'll waste a little more time. Good can be used in different ways, but with respect to morality "good" means those behaviors which are in the best interests of human society, and evil is it's opposite. It has nothing to do with my personal say so specifically, it has to do with the resulting effects those behaviors have on the living conditions of human society. Good and evil mean nothing from your religious perspective other than that they emanate from god. In other words if god says to murder your neighbor, then murder would be good, if god says to pillage, then pillaging would be good. Do you see, from your perspective, the word "good" itself doesn't mean anything, other than that god says so.

[seer]

I've explained that a thousand times over to you seer, I don't expect it to ever get through. But, what the heck, i've nothing better to do at the moment so I'll waste a little more time. Good can be used in different ways, but with respect to morality "good" means those behaviors which are in the best interests of human society, and evil is it's opposite. It has nothing to do with my personal say so specifically, it has to do with the resulting effects those behaviors have on the living conditions of human society. Good and evil mean nothing from your religious perspective other than that they emanate from god. In other words if god says to murder your neighbor, then murder would be good, if god says to pillage, then pillaging would be good. Do you see, from your perspective, the word "good" itself doesn't mean anything, other than that god says so.

That is stupid Jim, God's nature can not change, He can not order something evil since by nature He is good. And God's law is good for human society because God loves man and if we followed His general moral principles to love God, our fellow man, and followed the golden rule, etc... And really Jim good and evil mean nothing when you utter them, they are just your opinions, I mean you can't even tell us why the survival of our species is a moral good in the first place. Ya got nothing...

[lee_merrill]

... with respect to morality "good" means those behaviors which are in the best interests of human society, and evil is it's opposite.

Though the Nazis thought the primary good was what was in the best interests of the Aryan race, and how can you contradict them?

Good and evil mean nothing from your religious perspective other than that they emanate from god.

Well, if God per impossible should command a sin, then it would be right to disobey. If God was not perfectly good, he would not be God, because there would be a standard above him, judging him.

So God is good, as seer said, and if a real God exists, then he must command only what is perfectly good.

Blessings,
Lee

[Tassman]

Oh please, like killing our offspring by the millions further our self-preservation and procreation.

Abortion was only been deemed “immoral” relatively recently...for political reasons as much as anything.

[JimL]

That is stupid Jim, God's nature can not change, He can not order something evil since by nature He is good.

Seer, the above is the point that you are not getting. You can not argue that god is good unless the term good actually means something in and of itself.

And God's law is good for human society because God loves man

Well then, tell me what it is that you mean by good in the above assertion.

and if we followed His general moral principles to love God, our fellow man, and followed the golden rule, etc...

Again, as above, tell me in what way following those moral principles is "good" for human society?

And really Jim good and evil mean nothing when you utter them, they are just your opinions, I mean you can't even tell us why the survival of our species is a moral good in the first place. Ya got nothing...

Actually you just proved my point for me seer, and you didn't even realize it.

[JimL]

Though the Nazis thought the primary good was what was in the best interests of the Aryan race, and how can you contradict them?

How'd that work out for them, and for the millions of human beings that died because of their thought?

Well, if God per impossible should command a sin, then it would be right to disobey. If God was not perfectly good, he would not be God, because there would be a standard above him, judging him.

Again, like seer, you can't just define god as good, unless you can also define what you mean by good.

So God is good, as seer said, and if a real God exists, then he must command only what is perfectly good.

I'm waiting for one of you to define what you mean by the term "good."

[Tassman]

That is stupid Jim, God's nature can not change, He can not order something evil since by nature He is good.

According to you whatever God does is good by definition...including murdering, pillaging and raping as per Moses' genocides under the direction of his god.

And God's law is good for human society because God loves man and if we followed His general moral principles to love God, our fellow man, and followed the golden rule, etc...

The Golden Rule is the embodiment of mutual reciprocity, an evolved instinct and common to all humanity...it's not God's idea.

And really Jim good and evil mean nothing when you utter them, they are just your opinions, I mean you can't even tell us why the survival of our species is a moral good in the first place. Ya got nothing...

The survival of our species is not a moral good as such. Morals are derivatives of self-preservation and procreation and a consequence of natural selection.

[seer]

According to you whatever God does is good by definition...including murdering, pillaging and raping as per Moses' genocides under the direction of his god.

Correct taking out a wicked people or nation is a moral good, like when we took out the Nazis. And God never ordered rape - stop lying Tass...

The Golden Rule is the embodiment of mutual reciprocity, an evolved instinct and common to all humanity...it's not God's idea.

That is just stupid, God came first.

The survival of our species is not a moral good as such. Morals are derivatives of self-preservation and procreation and a consequence of natural selection.

I'm glad you agree that the survival of our species is not a moral good.

[seer]

Abortion was only been deemed “immoral” relatively recently...for political reasons as much as anything.

You said:Social mores derive from self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. They are beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as social animals.

So how does killing our offspring by the millions further our procreation and survival. If procreation and survival is why we have morals in the first place?

[seer]

Seer, the above is the point that you are not getting. You can not argue that god is good unless the term good actually means something in and of itself.

Are you kidding Jim? Then you can't use the term either, because it could never have meaning in and of itself in your atheist world. If you think otherwise, make the case...

[Sparko]

Abortion was only been deemed “immoral” relatively recently...for political reasons as much as anything.

By your own standards of "for the benefit of the human race" abortion should be immoral. Destroying your own gene pool for mere convenience is not beneficial for a species.