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Thread: Atheism And Moral Progress

  1. #631
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes Carp, God knowingly created men free, and knew they would misuse that freedom. Remember, what the greatest command is? To love God. Perhaps God values a love that is freely given over the determined love of automatons? And that is consistent with Christian theology.
    And it does not avoid the fact that god therefore knowingly created evil by creating a being capable of doing it. Again - there is nothing necessary about evil. God could have created humanity to only be able to do good. Your argument suggests that a being not capable of free moral choice is not capable of being genuine. That is an odd position to take given you have recently said that god is not capable of free moral choice.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-28-2018 at 01:42 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. #632
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    And it does not avoid the fact that god therefore knowingly created evil by creating a being capable of doing it. Again - there is nothing necessary about evil. God could have created humanity to only be able to do good. Your argument suggests that a being not capable of free moral choice is not capable of being genuine. That is an odd position to take given you have recently said that god is not capable of free moral choice.
    Really? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  3. #633
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Really? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.
    Our wives and children are largely determined to love us because of their socialization and acculturation by us as loving people. We in turn were inculcated with loving values by our own family and community. Human behavior has evolved to ensure the survival of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  4. #634
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Really? Would you find any real value in your wife's or children's love if they were predetermined to love you, with no choice in the matter? And I said nothing about being genuine, one could be genuinely determined.
    You are correct, you did not say "genuine." You said, "perhaps God values a love that is freely given over the determined love of automatons." And you are correct, I value the love of my wife because it is freely given. It would have little/no value if she was simply programmed to give that love. So then why should any human value the love of your god, when it is love given by a predetermined automaton? After all, god apparently cannot choose NOT to love me. It is not love freely given - it is love required by "god's nature."
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #635
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You are correct, you did not say "genuine." You said, "perhaps God values a love that is freely given over the determined love of automatons." And you are correct, I value the love of my wife because it is freely given. It would have little/no value if she was simply programmed to give that love. So then why should any human value the love of your god, when it is love given by a predetermined automaton? After all, god apparently cannot choose NOT to love me. It is not love freely given - it is love required by "god's nature."
    I value God's love because He made a way to save me, and not experience the wrath my sins deserve. Whether that love is determined by His nature or freely given the effect on my life and eternal future is the same.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  6. #636
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I value God's love because He made a way to save me, and not experience the wrath my sins deserve.
    Which, as a moral automaton, he more or less had to do, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Whether that love is determined by His nature or freely given the effect on my life and eternal future is the same.
    I see - so love freely given is only important for other humans - and not for gods.

    And you do not see the inconsistency of this? That's exactly what I was attempting to convey in my original exchange with you, Seer. I leave it to you to determine if it's important.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. #637
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Which, as a moral automaton, he more or less had to do, right?
    Yes I think His nature compels Him,

    I see - so love freely given is only important for other humans - and not for gods.
    Well God's love at least could not be capricious, as ours so often is. Again, whether determined or not it will have a lasting effect on my eternal state.

    And you do not see the inconsistency of this? That's exactly what I was attempting to convey in my original exchange with you, Seer. I leave it to you to determine if it's important.
    No, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures, we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given. But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes I think His nature compels Him,

    Well God's love at least could not be capricious, as ours so often is. Again, whether determined or not it will have a lasting effect on my eternal state.

    No, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures, we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given. But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?
    Seer, you are bending over backwards to make the automatonic (made up word?) behavior of a god somehow more valuable than the automatonic behavior of another human. That you have to work this hard to ignore the inconsistency of the belief is...well...informative.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #639
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Seer, you are bending over backwards to make the automatonic (made up word?) behavior of a god somehow more valuable than the automatonic behavior of another human. That you have to work this hard to ignore the inconsistency of the belief is...well...informative.
    What is automatonic? Did you mean automaton? But again Carp God is not an automaton, He thinks, wills, feels and acts. And my point is about what one values, and one can find value in a love that is unchanging and certain. With no variance. Especially when it comes to my eternal future. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
    Last edited by seer; 11-29-2018 at 04:59 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No, I do not see inconsistency, God may put great value on a love freely given by his creatures,
    Why does a perfect God, complete within himself, want love?

    we may also put great value on the love of our fellow man, freely given.
    We do, but we are imperfect creatures with needs and desires, unlike God.

    But as I said, I can find great value in the love of God even if it is destined by His very nature. There is certainty, perfect consistency, dependability - which breeds confidence and hope. Where is the problem?
    So the purpose of God's love is to make us feel secure? About what?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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